Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I wish to reiterate a point for Deputy Collins. Understandably, amendments in respect of pensions are rather technical and complicated. This is because they are based on the law of trusts and the law of trusts is rather complex.

The amendment I am bringing forward today will enable the Minister for Finance to draw down moneys from the Central Fund to discharge liabilities which may accrue to the State in the event of the wind-up of a defined benefit pension scheme. I set out the conditions earlier. As has been said, this stems from the Robins case in the United Kingdom and the case of Hogan and others v. the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, in respect of which the judgment of the European Court was delivered in April 2013.

I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding on the part of Deputy Boyd Barrett. In the legislation we adopted there is a broad framework to protect 100% of defined benefit schemes up to €12,000. To put this in context, in 2007 the Society of Actuaries in Ireland showed that the average defined benefit pension being paid directly from scheme funds was €10,718. Deputy Boyd Barrett seems to be under a misapprehension. Our legislation protects up to 100% up to €12,000. I cannot remember if Deputy Boyd Barrett took part in the debate when that legislation was going through. Anyway, Deputy Boyd Barrett will appreciate that almost all workers who are members in whatever category of defined benefit schemes are people who have paid PRSI. Therefore, in addition to their defined benefit pensions, they have access to the State contributory pension. Deputies will remember that the discussions last year were in the context of 100% or nearly 100%, since there can be slight differences in how negotiations go. For example, sometimes people want an upfront lump sum and may then seek a smaller pension subsequently. Often in the case of a wind-up it is a matter of negotiation.

Our structure envisages €12,000 from a defined benefit scheme and a further €12,000 to €14,000 in terms of the value of the State contributory pension. Deputy Boyd Barrett referenced the United Kingdom. I imagine the Deputy is aware that our State contributory pension is significantly higher than the State contributory pension paid in the United Kingdom. I imagine Deputy Boyd Barrett has taken that into account in his comments. The Deputy should not always be downing Ireland, because in many cases we have-----

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