Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the introduction of the Bill, which is timely. It has been needed for a long time. I always have reservations about having more regulation because sometimes we catch the wrong people in the net and a great deal of bureaucracy is created for those who are acting properly to try to catch those who abuse the system. However, I have no doubt that it is important to regulate lobbying.

We often hear comments in the media about the Whip system. One of the reasons I favour the system which we all enter into voluntarily in political parties is it prevents powerful interests lobbying and manipulating individual Deputies to their own ends. The notion that the country would be immune to the type of lobbying that occurs in other places is innocent. Would we, for example, be immune to the power of the drinks industry, the tobacco industry or many other powerful industries that seek to influence legislation in this House? We all know the method employed by lobbyists in other jurisdictions where politicians have a free vote.

I refer to the method of picking off people one by one, either through inducements, flattery or targeting their seats, which is a particular risk in our system of multi-seat constituencies.

When considering this issue in its totality we must try to ensure that lobbyists are not able to exert undue influence in the system. I confess that I have something of an allergy to professional lobbyists, regardless of whether they had worked previously with Ministers or in Departments or somewhere else. If one has a case to make, one should be able to make it. It always surprises me to see charities employing professional lobbyists given that charities can easily gain access to politicians. None of us would ever refuse a meeting with a charitable organisation seeking to outline its case.

Not many organisations used lobbyists when I was a member of the Government. During that time, one had information sessions in places such as Buswells Hotel, which were organised by representatives of the motor industry, the drinks industry, which has been highly active in recent times, and to a much lesser extent the tobacco industry. Deputies will be familiar with industry lobbying from these types of events. A large number of charitable organisations have also made a good case to politicians over the years. For some reason, however, a small number of them use lobbyists to do so. Organisations that sought, through a lobbyist, to arrange a meeting with me while I was a Minister did not get a meeting half as quick as they would have if they had approached me directly. I always prided myself in agreeing to meet groups expeditiously.

Recently, while attending a presentation arranged by a certain organisation, I pointed out to its representatives that it was not necessary to employ someone to come to the House to try to influence me and that they should instead make their point themselves. I also stated that it made me suspicious to see organisations with excellent bona fides resort to employing somebody to make their case rather than relying on the power of their argument.

The Fianna Fáil Party called for the introduction of this important legislation in January 2012. We must ensure the Bill does not inhibit ordinary citizens from accessing the system as this is a good feature of our society. I do not know of any politician who would refuse to meet the least well-off members of society or give access to ordinary people. Nevertheless, it is vital that we have in place a rigid system that ensures that all efforts to influence the system at a significant level, in particular by corporations, are declared. On the other hand, we must also ensure we do not interfere with the day-to-day work of various organisations, many of which represent charity interests and have a legitimate right to make their case to us.

The inclusion of a cooling off period for former Ministers and officials is vital. The absence of such a provision in the current regime can present a significant problem for Ministers as they do not have any control over those who leave their employ and take up positions elsewhere. Ministerial advisers and others whose contract had elapsed used to suddenly reappear in the system working as lobbyists for various industry interests and purporting to use their access as a selling point. The problem was that their previous boss was powerless to prevent this and the impression was given, as we have often heard from members of the current Government, that the former employer had somehow endorsed certain actions or was in some way associated with the actions of the lobbyist.

A one year cooling off period during which former Ministers and officials will be banned from taking up certain forms of employment appears to be too short. The cooling off period should last at least two years if it is to protect all Members of the Oireachtas. Now that the Labour Party and Fine Gael are in power and certain things are happening that they used to criticise, they are finding that they do not have control over these issues. We must create a system that provides for an adequate cooling off period. It may be, however, that the period that must elapse before a person can return to civvy street should be related to the length of time a person was employed in the public service. A person could be employed for four or five weeks before political instability results in him or her losing his or her job. These things have been known to happen. There is also a significant difference between the case of a person who leaves the private sector and joins the public service as an adviser before returning to his or her previous position and one that involves a long-term public service employee who never had a connection with lobbying and whose main qualification for suddenly becoming a lobbyist is that he or she previously worked in the public service.

I note that the Irish Farmers Association opposes the Bill because it will require the association to list all contacts between its officers and public representatives. We must produce a workable solution that addresses issues of this nature. The IFA is a large organisation and there would not be a mart where one of its officials would not speak to a public representative. One cannot argue that such contact is unfair or inappropriate. We must find a fair way to make it possible for larger organisations to engage in this manner. In the case of a political party with several thousand cumainn, accounting for a contribution of €10 is a greater problem than seeking to counter the influence of a €10 contribution. It is vital that we achieve proportionality and ensure the legislation is workable, controls major interests such as drinks and tobacco companies and prevents lobbyists from exerting an untoward influence on the political system.

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