Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the Guerin report. I begin by congratulating Deputy Frances Fitzgerald on her appointment as Minister for Justice and Equality. She has a reforming zeal that is going to be needed and tested in the Department at this very difficult juncture for the justice system. I wish her the very best and have no doubt about her abilities in that regard.

This is a very difficult time to be a member of An Garda Síochána and to work in the Department of Justice and Equality. It is important when we have this public discourse to recognise that reality and, as other speakers have, that the overwhelming majority who get up and put on the uniform in the morning, go out and patrol the streets and keep us safe, have protected the State from subversion, just like the public and civil servants in the Department, are doing a very fine and honourable job. Just as we have seen in so many other sectors, including the charity sector, this House when it is brought into dispute, the church and other institutions, we cannot tar everybody with the same brush. That, however, is not to take away from the seriousness of the issues dealt with in the report and the other issues brought to light. Nonetheless, it is important to express my gratitude to all those who serve the State with distinction, be it in the Department of Justice and Equality or when they don the uniform and patrol the streets as members of An Garda Síochána.

While it is difficult to be a member of the Garda at this time and morale is low, it is also a very difficult time to be a whistleblower. We have a very bad culture, reputation, history and track record when it comes to how we treat whistleblowers. I do not believe this is confined to one party or one Government. It is an issue the State has to address because we do not have a good record when it comes to whistleblowers. In his report Mr. Guerin captured it more much more articulately than I ever could when he said we had a situation where a critical voice was in danger of being heard as a contrary voice. He said: "The whistleblower, like the referee from whom he gets his name, is seen as someone who is not on the team." To be frank, as somebody who sat through the hearings at the Committee of Public Accounts with the then Garda Commissioner, Mr. Callinan, it was very clear that the top brass of An Garda Síochána viewed whistleblowers and dissenting voices as "not on the team". That is the problem. One can engage in all the guff about An Garda Síochána as a disciplined force, but that is an issue on the margins and there is no disputing that reality. However, one has to have in every force and every facet of society the ability to hear different views and divergent voices. It is clear that this culture was not and possibly is not in place within An Garda Síochána and many other areas. That presents a challenge for the Minister.

The Guerin report, at page 330, is littered with compliments paid to Sergeant McCabe by his superiors. He is described by a chief superintendent as "very positive and energetic," with "a strong work ethic" and "a strong emphasis in community policing." Another detective superintendent describes him as "capable and enthusiastic," while at all times he was found to be "efficient." A retired superintendent describes him as "an excellent Sergeant and member" and says "he offered 200% commitment." Another superintendent describes him as "efficient, flexible and committed" and says "He was diligent in the performance of his duties." As a state, we sneered at him - not the Minister or me personally, but he was sneered at and belittled. This does not mean, because I do not know, that he or any other whistleblower is right in everything they say. We have commissions and structures to determine and adjudicate on that issue. However, he was sneered at. If he was sneered at, how many other whistleblowers have been sneered at? At the Committee of Public Accounts we saw a huge display of sneering. That has to end. In fairness, the comments of the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on recognising the role of whistleblowers; the comments of the Taoiseach and the apology from the former Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, are all important steps in recognising this. We cannot jump to the assumption that if somebody dares to speak out or raise a question, he or she is just a troublemaker. That is wrong.

With other members of the Committee of Public Accounts, I met Sergeant McCabe and he struck me as a credible individual. I am not qualified to adjudicate on the issues he brought to our attention, although Mr. Guerin has certainly found substance in what he had to say.

He was dismissed too quickly. We have a history of that in this State. It is a case of "There is nothing wrong here, nothing to see, move on," and we have to learn from that. I am not making a political point because it is something that all parties and Governments and broader society have failed at. I hope that when people look back at the Minister's record in many years to come, it will be seen as the record of a Minister who finally decided that the culture in An Garda Síochána had to change and that there needs to be a willingness to hear different views and to provide a forum and structure in which those views can be heard.

It is important to acknowledge that the Guerin report is very comprehensive, thorough and insightful, and was written and put together efficiently in a very short space of time. I acknowledge the work done by Mr. Guerin. It was never within the report's remit to make a determination, and Mr. Guerin recognises this. That is the purpose of the commission of inquiry, the establishment of which I very much welcome. However, there are lessons we can immediately learn from the report that we do not need commissions or further investigations to tell us about. Page 333 gives us an insight into the training, supervisory mechanisms and the support or lack thereof provided to members of An Garda Síochána, including new members. As we begin recruiting new gardaí, no new Garda should leave Templemore and be put in a station protecting this State and its people without the recommendations and conclusions on page 333 being taken on board. This idea of probationary gardaí being left without support structures, inadequate accommodation being provided, no experienced sergeants being available to provide supervision and a lack of stability, continuity and experience at district officer level are very basic and practical points that can be addressed. We do not need more commissions to address them. As the Minister recommences recruitment to An Garda Síochána, which is very welcome, this is something that really needs to be looked at.

The Department of Justice and Equality needs to be examined. While I acknowledge the work ethic of many people within that Department, it is fair to ask whether the Department in its current form, and its current relationship structures with An Garda Síochána, are fit for purpose in 21st-century Ireland. Do the structures work? Is the relationship too circular? When one reads the Guerin report, it seems that what happened on occasions in the Department was that when an allegation was made about the gardaí and sent to the Department, the Department sent it back to the gardaí and asked them about it and the gardaí wrote back. The relationship was circular. There was not enough time to stop, to think, to ask for an outside voice or to decide to carry out an external review. Was section 42, which related to the establishment of a special inquiry, used often enough? Could it have been used more often? Is that fit for purpose? Do we need to look at that piece of legislation? I very much welcome the Minister's planned establishment of an independent expert review of the Department, because we cannot look at this in a piecemeal way. We must look at all aspects of our justice system. That review needs to be speedy. It needs to be comprehensive, but it cannot be allowed to drag on either because there are crucial questions about management, the Ministers and Secretaries Act and how the Minister of the day interacts or does not interact with senior civil servants. I do not say this about any Minister or any personality, because this is bigger than that. This is about whether, when a Minister, regardless of his or her political hue, goes into a Department, the structures are adequate to ensure that he or she receives the advice that is required. Is the Ministers and Secretaries Act serving the Minister for Justice and Equality of the day adequately? We need to know that.

My next point is not meant as a criticism in any way, shape or form of any Member of the Oireachtas who brought information into the public domain on behalf of whistleblowers, because they did their duty in that regard. However, it should never have reached that point. We should never have had a situation in which a whistleblower felt he had to print records off the PULSE system, stick them in a black box and send them to the Committee of Public Accounts, or meet Deputies and provide them with names and details. This is not a criticism of the Deputies or the whistleblower. It is a criticism of the fact that we had to get to that point - that this member or those members of An Garda Síochána either felt they could not have confidence in the existing structures or felt that adequate structures did not exist. We must make sure that robust structures are in place. The Oireachtas has a role to play in respect of legislation, the gardaí have a role to play in respect of the detection and prosecution of crime with the DPP, the Department has a role to play, and the judiciary has a role to play. However, if something goes wrong and there is a problem and a dissenting voice, where can that voice go? The Guerin report and what we have seen in respect of penalty points and other matters show us that there is simply no adequate robust structure for that voice to go to.

I welcome some of the announcements in respect of GSOC. It is vital that GSOC has real teeth, that a serving Garda can go to it and have an outside view and that we can have confidence in GSOC as an ombudsman commission. It is really welcome that we will have an independent Garda authority, because it is badly needed. We need to take the politics out of policing. The proposed change to the Protected Disclosures Bill to include members of An Garda Síochána and protect them as whistleblowers is very welcome, but we must see all these things through and we must see them through in a way that allows the public to have confidence in our justice system.

We must also challenge an assumption we tend to arrive at in this country that if a problem occurs it is a localised one. Donegal was meant to be a localised policing problem. We could run the risk of saying that Bailieborough was a localised policing problem. We must adopt the approach that these problems are not localised but systemic, because if we do not do that we will end up constantly having a collection of localised problems. Donegal was meant to be localised and now we are talking about Cavan. Which place will we be talking about next? We must look more broadly than that and not fall into the trap of thinking that something was a one-off incident that just happened in this station or that station. It is bigger than that.

My colleague Deputy Buttimer also raised a cultural issue in respect of An Garda Síochána that I want to put on the record of this House, because it provides an insight into the rigidity that exists in the gardaí. Deputy Buttimer reminded us of an occasion when there was an LGBT parade in our capital city during which members of police forces around the world marched with pride in their uniform. Members of the Irish police force were not allowed to take part while in uniform because it is a disciplined force. We must get beyond this. That gives one an insight into this conservative attitude - an view that says that one is in the force and will do what one is told. These are citizens of our Republic who are equal, and if they want to wear their uniform and march in favour of equality and being proud of who they are, they should be allowed do that. It is a small point but it is yet another insight into the need to challenge the culture that can exist at the top level of An Garda Síochána.

We have a long way to go in tackling the justice challenges this country faces. We have Cooke report, the Fennelly commission and the independent expert review of the Department of Justice and Equality, which is now headed up by Deputy Fitzgerald. We obviously need and will have the independent commission of inquiry. There is a long way to go. It is crucial that this House continues collectively and in a non-partisan way to work towards restoring faith and trust in An Garda Síochána in the interests of all our citizens and the men and women in An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality, so many of whom get up in the morning and serve this country with distinction on a daily basis.

See this speech in context