John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The attitude was that the culture had to be protected. The Minister would not be here today but for the fact that he set out to protect the culture that led us to this position. One need only to look at his attitude towards Maurice McCabe and John Wilson. I wish John Wilson a speedy recovery, which is something the Minister did not do. I do not doubt this affair has had an impact on his health. Did the Minister ever meet or speak to Maurice McCabe and John Wilson? Does he intend to call them in to ask them about this debacle and ascertain what information they gave to the Road Safety Authority, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts? Does he know what documentation was in circulation? Has he seen the documentation and does he understand why two serving policeman, Maurice McCabe and the now retired John Wilson, were so annoyed and upset about the system that they put their careers at stake to become known as whistleblowers?

What the Minister said about the goodness of the Garda and the work it does is true and beyond doubt. None of us questions that. However, we are questioning the culture that condemned those two men the moment they opened their mouths to say that something was wrong. I like to consider them as concerned citizens who are employed as gardaí. A range of meanings can be drawn from the word "whistleblower". These are concerned citizens who came forward with statements that they could back up with facts and evidence. When they tried to make the institution understand that something was wrong, the desire to protect the culture kicked in. The Minister was part of that culture of protection. He did not listen. Much could have been done but he did not do it. I raised these issues in another debate while the Minister was also sitting opposite. The only issue he raised with me by letter subsequent to that debate was why the lady whistleblower in question did not use the processes available to her. He wrote to me, but perhaps it is the fault of somebody else in the Department who stamped a letter about which the Minister knows nothing. That was the only issue he raised with me. Why should this individual use the processes? She went to the confidential recipient but he told her the last person who had used the system was washing cars in Navan. After I made my statement in the Dáil, did the Minister check it out? I doubt it. This person was reporting that something was wrong with the system. She was declaring it could not be trusted. We heard nothing about it from the confidential recipient, who has since been relieved of his duties. Surely that man has a body of evidence that he could give to the Minister or the acting commissioner, but no attempt has been made on the part of the Minister or his Department to get the information. That lady's case remains to be dealt with. She was bullied and pushed out of the force, like John Wilson but not like Sergeant McCabe. What impressed us most about Sergeant McCabe's contribution to the Committee of Public Accounts was that despite legal advice not to do so, he turned up in full uniform and he sat on his own across from members to tell us his side of the story without mentioning a single name. He told us that he was proud to appear before the committee and to be a member of the force. His fundamental message was that the force needed to be sorted out but during the course of the O'Mahoney investigation nobody went to him. In any factory or business, if an employee spoke badly about his or her organisation, the foreman or boss would ask to have a chat. That did not happen.

The Minister has apologised to John Wilson and Maurice McCabe. What about the lady whistleblower to whom he has not apologised? What about the way he treated them prior to his remarks? Essentially he told them to put up and shut up. That was an awful way to deal with two men who had nothing in their minds but the betterment of the force. Will he apologise to the lady whistleblower who was forced out of the Garda because she made a complaint of sexual harassment? Is that something he should investigate? I believe it is. Will he apologise to Lucia O'Farrell, whose son was killed on the roadside? A number of legally minded people have told her that the Minister should do something about that case. I raised it with him on the same day I made my aforementioned comments but he never wrote to me about it. Did he look over the file and will he do anything with it? The O'Farrell case highlights all that is wrong with investigations, the Attorney General's office and the system of justice in this country. I appeal to the Minister to include that case for consideration. As the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, was whispering sweet nothings into the ear of the Minister, Deputy Shatter, I hope they heard clearly what I have said on that case.

Will the Minister, Deputy Shatter, apologise to the members of the Traveller community whose records are now on the PULSE system? Families who went to Garda stations to have papers signed for passport applications ended up being profiled on the system. Babies aged 16 days were entered into the system. Human rights are being violated left, right and centre. What about the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, who is the protector of the children of this country?

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