Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I will try to do so. The Bill is very much intertwined with the matter we debated earlier today. I acknowledge the valuable, important and forthright contributions made by Members from all sides of the House in the previous debate. The Minister will appreciate what I am trying to do in that there is an interconnection between speaking to the Bill and the earlier debate. I know the Minister will respect me for this.

I do not want anybody playing political football with members of An Garda Síochána. I do not have to look too far from where I am standing to see members of An Garda Síochána, for whom I, my colleagues and everybody should have nothing but the utmost of respect. The rank and file gardaí do what can be a very difficult job at times. It is a challenging job that they have chosen and are proud and glad to carry out. However, it is not appropriate for politicians to play political football with their jobs.

At the same time the Government has a very serious problem, as has rightly been pointed out already today. Unfortunately the Minister for Justice and Equality is completely detached from An Garda Síochána, from his colleagues here in this House and from the people who elected him. He seems to carry on with a certain arrogance that is not befitting of the job he holds. That might be a debate for another day or a different forum, but at the end of the day it is a problem. The Minister is an experienced politician and he knows, as do the media and the people, that we have a problem with the Minister for Justice and Equality. That is unfortunate and I get no satisfaction from saying it. However, it is not appropriate for a person to detach himself from a situation and try to push everything away, claiming he is right and everyone else is wrong. Unfortunately the country is suffering from that at present.

Of course whistleblowers need to be protected but we also need protection for those against whom allegations are made. A person might be unhappy in a job for various reasons and through no intention of the Minister's could wrongfully use the whistleblowers legislation to get at somebody, which is not right. I know that neither the Minister nor the Government wants that to be the case. While we need protection for whistleblowers, we need fair play and justice for the people against whom allegations and complaints are being made.

As Deputy Mathews rightly said, in society today we need to stand up against those who bully, intimidate and try to put down others. Many of us suffer from this in our walks of life. Some of us are tough enough to put up with it, but unfortunately more people are not. I have read some of the files of whistleblowers.

Their families have put up with a great deal; they have suffered in their jobs, and that is not right. Regardless of whether one is a county council worker sweeping the streets or elected to this House to represent people, in my eyes and in the eyes of the Minister every person, irrespective of his or her grade or job, is equal and entitled to be treated with respect and to be given fair play. The Minister knows that whistleblowers in the past have not been listened to or treated properly or fairly. I would argue with the Minister that a balance must be struck. I do not want political footballs being made out of any sector, and particularly not out of An Garda Síochána. The majority of its members are respectable people, going about their jobs, taking on the role of protecting society against criminals and wrongdoings but, unfortunately, where they have come across instances of wrongdoing and put up their hands and said they want to speak out against that, they have not been treated properly or fairly. I do not want to apportion blame indiscriminately or wrongly but much of what has gone on must fall on the desk of the Minister for Justice and Equality. It will be up to him in the coming days and weeks to decide whether he will continue in his role, but much of that will come down to the Taoiseach and his views on the matter.

There has been a great deal of kicking the can down the road by the Government. Nobody would deny that the recent Cabinet meeting, at which a decision was made to appoint a senior counsel to investigate certain matters, is a case of kicking the can down the road. It is a case of taking the pot off the cooker for it to cool down a little. In the same way, it is hoped the focus of public opinion will move from the matter at hand and the hot pot that has been the issue in recent days will die away, but unfortunately it will not. In recent days the Government made a big mistake in, first, ruling out of hand having a sworn public inquiry and now saying if it is told to have one it will have one, but it has to wait until it is told to do so. The Government should not have to wait to do something that is right. The Opposition has rightly called for a sworn inquiry into recent matters. Unfortunately, the Government has played an excellent game of brinkmanship in yesterday's Cabinet decision to kick the can down the road by appointing a senior counsel to do a job and that if he tells it that it has to do something, it will do it but until then it will not. That is not right; it is not a proper decision. That is not what the people would have expected from their national Government.

In regard to bullying, everybody in his or her respective role may have been affected by bullying. I know for certain, and pity about me, that I have been bullied by national media and by Ministers and have been wrongfully put to the pin of my collar at times. Lies have been told about me but I am able to take that on the chin. That is part of my job unfortunately as a public representative, but it is not nice. What about people who are not able to take that type of behaviour on the chin? What about people who are going about their jobs, quiet, nice, ordinary people who find themselves working and living in intolerable situations? If I thought what the Minister is proposing in his whistleblowers legislation would be helpful to people in that type of situation, I would support it. The legislation must be fair and equitable for all.

The Government is faced with a problem, and how it will be handled will be teased out in the coming weeks and months. The Government has to examine its decisions and how certain people in government have handled situations they have known about for a number of years. It is not right that people have to go from Billy to Jack and back again with their complaints, hoping that somebody will listen to them. Since the confidential recipient in An Garda Síochána was relieved of his duties, members of the force have not had anyone to whom they could go when faced with a problem. I hope this legislation will be a change for the better. At least it will be better than there not being anyone there for them. The Minister will be aware there was no person in that role for the past week or ten days and that members of An Garda Síochána had nowhere to go if they had complaint. If the Government is addressing that problem, I wholeheartedly welcome it. I hope it will be a proper recourse with which members can engage if they have complaints.

More so than people in other sectors of society, members of An Garda Síochána, because of the various difficulties associated with their roles, encounter problems about which they need advice and guidance. We do not want it to be a free for all in society whereby unjust accusations can be made about people. It could be the case that a boss in a local factory might not be popular with his workforce and a whistleblower could make a false accusation about him or her. We must have protection for the whistleblower, for the people against whom accusations are made and a proper avenue for complaints to be teased out and debated in an open, fair and proper manner.

The Minister would have to admit that the earlier debate and the debate on this Bill are intertwined. I did not like some of the earlier debate because it amounted to some people playing political football, particularly with An Garda Síochána. That is not right nor is it good for the force, on which we rely to ensure we live in a safe society and to which we look to uphold the law of the land in the best way it possibly can at all times. Much of what went on today was not supportive of that. I do not want collateral damage to be caused to the image of An Garda Síochána because this House and Government must ensure we have respect for An Garda Síochána. Some of the Minister's behaviour since his appointment as Minister for Justice and Equality certainly has not been conducive to supporting An Garda Síochána. I would like if he was here to contradict that, and I would like to hear him do so. I hate talking about someone in his or her absence but I hope I am being fair in my comments.

All I want from this legislation is that it will work, will be acceptable to all and that in time people will say it is fair and that they can work and live with it. I hope that in the coming weeks and months we will be able to sort out the current difficulties because they have to be sorted out. It has been wrong that these situations have been allowed to drag on for so long.

It is painful to see people outside the gates of the Dáil seeking reassurance and support, and to have what they see as wrongdoings sorted out.

That is no place for those people to be. They should have a proper place to go to and have proper redress of their situations. I hope that will happen over the coming weeks and months. I thank the Minister and again thank the Technical Group for allowing me some of their time on this very important matter.

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