Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent) | Oireachtas source

If I could continue, I would appreciate it. They are still offering to give many supports but they cannot be allowed to be labelled with the whole mess. There is a suggestion that it was all their fault, but it was not. I know some of the families involved - Deputy Doherty might know some of them as well - who banished their youngsters into these places. I did not know they existed until they came back to mind loved ones in later years. That is what went on in Ireland.

While it now is fine to pick on the Church, the laity and some of the religious orders and to blame them for everything, the State also had responsibility, as had the families. As I stated, one cannot forget the outstanding families who have given voluntary and gallant service, in many cases without assistance from the Health Service Executive, HSE. Such families did not get a shilling from the HSE, were not approved by the HSE and now are not being recognised for pension rights or anything else - the Minister is aware of some issues I brought to her attention previously - but have given sterling service over decades when there was no agency and no HSE staff to mind or look after them. Their great work must not be forgotten or banished in the rush to set up this new agency and Members must make sure those people get recognition.

As for the 4,000 people involved, what impact will this have on the HSE? Members have seen the impact the loss of staff has had on foot of the redundancy packages, as in many areas, the HSE cannot cope. For example, hospitals in my own locality cannot cope as they have insufficient staff. If one takes 4,000 staff members from the HSE, what gaps will be left behind? As I have stated previously, the HSE has a disgraceful culture in many areas with deplorable waste and pathetic management. Many of its senior managers previously were ordinary clerical officers who worked up the line. Many of them never got any experience of managing so much as a chicken coop and have no experience of management but now have landed, because of promotion and other issues, in senior management positions for which they have no experience or understanding. They could not manage people because they were never trained to so do and this is the reason the abject failures exist but no one wants to wake up and acknowledge that. Moreover, the trade unions that represent such people also do not wish to acknowledge these abject failures on the part of people who have no qualifications, understanding or experience and no wish to have proper management. This issue must be dealt with and the Minister should not allow any of this culture to enter the new agency through these same people, who in many cases are career public servants who seek to be chief executive officers, if they can. At present, it is a case of having too much management. In the hospitals and everywhere else, one finds every kind of manager one could think of from the strategic manager to the bed manager to the floor manager to the ward manager to the God knows what kind of manager. When matrons ran the hospitals, there were no managers but there were clean hospitals without any infections and without the frightening situation that now obtains, with many cases of chronic overcrowding and inadequacies within the system. As a result, many hospitals are unable to attract the staff, medical and otherwise, that are needed. This is mainly because of poor management.

In addition, the quality of foster parents was and remains poor to this day. I refer to some recent reports drawn up by people regarding standards in Dublin, the north east and other areas and I reiterate there are poor foster carers. I do not know how they obtained Garda vetting clearance or how they got and continue to get children in spite of the families concerned being involved in violence, drugs, alcohol and other issues and this beggars belief. I acknowledge they are a minority but I personally know of them. I am not speaking anecdotally but am aware of them myself as they have been brought to my attention as a public representative over the years. I have complained to the Garda and to the health services but nothing was done about it. It is frightening to think that vulnerable children would be placed in such situations. I reiterate it concerns a tiny minority but even if it only affects one child, it is too much and I speak from personal experience. Consequently, Members must ensure this cannot happen and I personally do not believe that establishing a new quango, with all the aforementioned staff members and a budget of €500 million, will make it good simply because big is wonderful.

I have to hand a press release from the Children's Rights Alliance in response to the publication of the Child and Family Agency Bill 2013. While the alliance has given it a guarded welcome, the headline to the release states "Alliance Responds to Child and Family Agency Bill 2013 - The legal foundation for fixing a broken system", which is an admirable heading for any press release. However, as it is a broken system, the question is whether it will be new or different. Can the Minister appoint people from without the system, rather than all of them being drawn from within the system, because the system literally has admonished itself and has grown to be unmanageable? Can people also be brought in from external sources, particularly those with management techniques and people management skills, as well as expertise in staff and employment legislation and so on? The acting chief executive of the alliance states:

This Bill is critically important. It provides the legal foundation stone upon which the Child and Family Agency will be built. We know our system is broken: this Bill must begin to fix this dysfunctional system. On a first reading we welcome many aspects of the Bill, but are concerned that it has not gone far enough to firmly ground the Agency in children's rights.

She continues by stating:

We believe the Bill does not go far enough. The Agency must listen to children on all matters affecting their lives. The child's right to have his or her views heard and taken on board must be clearly enshrined in the Bill. Within each damning report on child protection, the common thread was that the child's views were invisible. This theme was central to the Children's Referendum.

It certainly was, but why then did the Government abuse the children's referendum?

The Minister knows what I am about to say because I have raised this matter in the Chamber more than 20 times. A certain gentleman took a case to the High Court and the Supreme Court and I note Members have been listening for several months to debates on legislation regarding the protection of family and life because of a Supreme Court case and a judgment made 20 years ago, which now is even being queried by one of the judges concerned. However, time has moved on, as have science and law. The case to which I refer is more recent and pertains to the fact that Members of this House, including me, voted €3 million to be expended on the children's referendum but the Government could not do that and leave the commission to be set up. Instead, it had to put its hand into the till and steal €1.1 million of the money that was passed. These are not my words but €1.1 million of the money was stolen out of the-----

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