Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party) | Oireachtas source

The previous speaker has given a very good illustration of why this matter should be left out of the hands of politicians and treated for what it is, a health matter that should be adjudicated on between women and their doctors. We should remind ourselves of why we are here and why we are in this mess. It is precisely because the Constitution equates the life of a woman with that of an unborn. If they were two independent lives, perhaps one might have an argument about this but because the life of an unborn is intrinsically linked with that of the woman; when there is a conflict, there has to be an adjudication. The Supreme Court adjudicated on the matter in the X case and determined that in the event of a conflict where the life of the woman was in danger, including from a risk of suicide, she was legally entitled to an abortion in Ireland. While it did not direct us to do anything about it, in fairness, it made its opinion abundantly clear. Mr. Justice McCarthy has been quoted here already. He said the failure to enact appropriate legislation was not just unfortunate or inappropriate but that it was inexcusable.

This very narrow Bill is based on the premise of protecting a woman's life if in danger, including from a risk of suicide. Inevitably, that means we are talking about a tiny number of the thousands of Irish women who have abortions every year. We do not know, but it may be 40 or 50. A very small number will be affected by the provisions in this Bill, but a very small number nonetheless is still not none. There are people who are pregnant and suicidal. The Deputy gave as examples the cases of six young women in State care. A psychiatrist adjudicated that it was best for their mental health that they should have an abortion. Unfortunately, these young women were taken out of the country for that treatment. Presumably, the purpose of the Bill means precisely that these young women would not have had to travel. The point has been made previously that women who are not in the care of the State, where they, their parents or partners have the means to travel, if they are suicidal, will continue to do what they do now; they will get on a Ryanair aeroplane or a boat and travel to England because they certainly will not put themselves through the Star Chamber that is envisaged by the Government. We need to be very clear on this matter. We know for a fact that suicide in the case of pregnant women is a reality.

Speakers made a point this morning about the high level of maternal care and the excellence of Irish maternity services. They are not bad, but they are not the best. They are nowhere near the best; they are probably average at best. We can say this with certainty because the method of calculating such figures in Ireland is at variance with that used by some of our European peers. The latest figures show that out of the 25 maternal deaths in recent years, two were women who had committed suicide. I do not know if an abortion would have saved the lives of these two women; nobody knows. I do not know the circumstances, but perhaps it might have done. If it would save the life of even one person, I would be glad to see such a provision in the Bill.

I take great offence at Deputy Peadar Tóibín's talk about medical evidence. He dismisses the issue of mental health and the risk of suicide as if it was spurious and not really an issue at all. That is what lies behind a great many of the contributions to this debate. It is a fundamental assertion that women would scheme and lie, pretend to be suicidal, hoodwink their doctors who are so cowardly and ridiculous that they would go along with it to enable themselves to have a termination here. Lads, they will not; they will travel to England and do what they are doing already. It is disgustingly disrespectful and I find it quite offensive, not only to women who make these difficult decisions but also to the many victims of suicide and their families, that people would seek to trivialise mental health issues. People slag off medical opinion produced by the College of Psychiatrists in Ireland, the expert body when it comes to mental health. They throw that opinion out the window and then lean on the medical opinion of obstetricians. One might as well get the medical opinion of vets on issues of mental health. It is ludicrous. The psychiatrists are the ones who make the decisions in this regard and they are medical decisions.

There was the derogatory use of the word "floodgates" with reference to other states which had legislated on this issue, as if this was an easy decision for any woman in any circumstance. Examples were given from Britain and America. I fully respect everyone's individual opinion which he or she is entitled to express. I remind Deputy Terence Flanagan that to express an opinion and state it as fact and back it up with studies, some of which are spurious, having been the beneficiary of a trip to America and welcomed by these bodies which purport to stand over these scientific studies, is not to engage in a scientific analysis. He should declare his vested interest in these matters.

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