Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies for their very comprehensive contributions across a range of issues.

In response to a query from Deputy Pringle, the whole of Ireland is a taxi-meter area, but an individual is required to have a licence to operate in each area. While a taxi driver can pick passengers up in Donegal and drop them at their destination, it is not possible for the taxi driver to end up in Dublin and start operating out of Dublin. The Deputy has made a very good suggestion about the courts. However, the Bill provides for an appeal mechanism which will probably meet the Deputy's requirements.

Deputies' contributions have ranged from the legislation before us to the multiplicity of regulatory changes introduced as a consequence of the implementation of the review which I chaired. As there is considerable duplication and overlap, I will refer to both of them. Indecon estimated a 22% oversupply, which I regarded as quite low. While I rarely see Dublin on a Saturday night, even on a Thursday or a Friday it is possible to see it.

Clearly, there is oversupply and I accept that totally. However, I want to say out straight that I deal with the taxi industry at a level of detail that, by and large, no other Minister has done previously. The majority of taxi drivers are decent, honest and genuine people and that is the case throughout the country. I have met them in Letterkenny, Galway, Cork, Portlaoise and throughout the country. This is the case in particular for full-time taxi drivers. The motivation behind the regulations and legislation I am introducing is to ensure they can do an honest day's work and not work a 16 hour day to ensure they bring home an honest day's pay. Unfortunately, through the laissez-faireand non-priority approach politically of previous Governments towards this industry the food has been taken out of their mouths, but I aim to change that. Much of this work is motivated by my personal experience, knowledge and interaction with such people, who, I believe, are decent hard-working people.

I examined the issue of capping licences when I first came to office. However, legally I cannot do it. There are various reasons relating to Irish and European law which mean I cannot do it and there are several court cases that have set a precedent in this area. All of this means it would be folly for me to try to set a cap. Having said that, we have considered the issue through this legislation and the regulatory changes we are introducing through the National Transport Authority. The idea is to change completely the way the industry is regulated through the NTA. Under the authority there will be a range of qualitative and legislative changes to deal with the industry and make it fit for purpose. This will not happen overnight - I accept that - but I believe it will take place as a result of all the changes. If they are truthful about it, those in the industry would admit they have seen that already.

Some Deputies raised the issue of a buyback scheme for licences in order to bring down the numbers. To put it straight, I do not believe licences should have a monetary value. My driving licence does not have a monetary value and similarly I do not believe taxi licences should have such a value. Years ago a person had to pay thousands for a licence which were trading for serious money and it was absolutely ridiculous. I am ensuring there is a prohibition on the transfer of licences. This is something the majority of taxi drivers have welcomed. The situation of the rental market and that aspect of the industry was completely ridiculous. Now, when a person rents a car, he must rent the whole package. A person does not simply secure his licence and then proceed to get the car and the equipment. The whole thing must be in one and, therefore, an owner is responsible.

I had to make one change relating to the prohibition on licence transfer. This relates to when someone with a licence passes away. There is an exemption in this area for several months afterwards and someone can apply as a member of the family to take on the licence. To be honest, I did that as a result of representations to the taxi steering group and I made the change on the basis of the request.

The issue of prohibition has been raised. An amendment will be introduced on the next Stage relating to companies because a percentage of licences are owned by companies and we need to ensure there is an approach to deal with that. I will deal with that on Committee Stage.

Much of the Bill deals with the issue of people who have serious convictions and who have a licence to drive a taxi. Put simply, there are people, possibly driving by this building tonight, who simply should not be behind the wheel of a taxi. I am not suggesting there are many of them, but they do exist. Given that there is legislation providing powers to deal with this, it is an insane and crazy situation in 2013. We all have loved ones who could get into the back seat of a taxi driven by a person who certainly should not be behind the wheel of any public service vehicle. That is the motivation. The motivation is to ensure we have an industry fit for purpose and, from a consumer point of view, one in which the consumer can trust and feel safe using. In addition, drivers must feel safe as well because the number of attacks on drivers is ridiculous and there has been completely unacceptable behaviour by some among the public.

People have raised the issue of the various timelines that are being put out depending on the conviction. This relates to the number of years, whether retrospective or in future, a person will lose his licence if he has certain convictions. We must be proportionate and we need to work closely with the Attorney General to ensure the prohibition or withdrawal of a licence is proportionate to the crime of which the person is convicted. This is what the table in the Bill outlines.

The issue of those who have convictions and who were released under the Good Friday Agreement has been raised by several colleagues, especially those in Sinn Féin. I simply do not believe this is the appropriate place to deal with that issue, but that is not to dismiss it. The issue goes beyond the Taxi Regulation Bill. It is a broader issue. I have taken many soundings and advice, including advice from the Attorney General. The issue is broader than the Bill and most Deputies, if they thought about it logically, would accept that. There is a broader issue in respect of those who were released under the Good Friday Agreement, their rights under the Agreement and how, as a nation, we are dealing with it. That is why there is a provision in the Bill to allow people a fair amount of time to go through the courts in a reasonable way if they believe they should have their licences back. However, there is another point, which was raised by Deputy Pringle as well. There is a possibility that this issue should have been raised under the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill in some fashion. Some Deputies, especially from Sinn Féin, have said that amendments were tabled. I have not had a chance to clarify it but I understand amendments were tabled to this Bill in the Seanad. However, to my knowledge no amendments were tabled in the Dáil or Seanad on the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill in respect of the Good Friday Agreement. That may be something that should be reflected on by others.

This legislation brings changes in the area of fixed penalties. I took advice from the taxi advisory committee in respect this issue. I changed the penalties and made some of them more lenient because I believed it was necessary. We added several penalties and we brought in the issue of penalty points or demerits as they are termed in the legislation because if someone is constantly going against the regulations and laws, he should have his licence suspended.

I accept absolutely the views of every Deputy on rank space. It is an issue in every major city. Every year I meet people in local authorities in the major cities and I am always asking them to provide more rank spaces for taxes. We are constantly looking at this and local authorities are constantly looking at the issue of bus lanes and lay-by space and anything that can be used, especially at night because that is when the surge occurs. Work is ongoing in this area with all the major local authorities.

Many speakers have said that we are doing a good deal of work in this area but they have questioned whether there will be enforcement. There will be enforcement. I estimate the number of enforcement officers will treble. This will not necessarily unfold as Deputy Pringle envisages. We need to consider this area and reflect on what meets the requirements. However, the capacity of the Bill allows flexibility if we need to ramp up or down in certain areas. To be frank, initially, after this legislation is enacted, we need to ramp up quickly and that is what the Bill allows us to do. I imagine Deputy Pringle appreciates that. Enforcement is a major issue and there is no point in putting in place all of these regulations and the legislation to back them up if we do not enforce them.

Technology has contributed significantly to the industry in recent years.

For example, the National Transport Authority has developed an app for one's telephone that enables one to check every taxi driver before getting into the car. This is a fantastic, widely used application, which incidentally is used a great deal by taxi drivers. One also sees the Hailo app among others and technology is contributing greatly. However, one must be able to ensure the industry is good enough both to allow this technology to facilitate people and to embrace the technology in the first place in order that it all works together, as I believe it will.

I propose to introduce a number of amendments on Committee Stage on a range of issues, one of which concerns the issue of a notification to the employer that one is driving a taxi. There is an issue regarding the volume of hours that drivers work that often is discussed with the Road Safety Authority in my Department. Some drivers could have other jobs and I note the case of the "Prime Time Investigates" television programme when someone also was a bus driver. This issue must be dealt with because it is not safe to drive vehicles, be they buses or trucks, for hours on end and then get into a taxi straight away and continue driving. I believe everyone will accept this point. Rural hackney licences are necessary because of market failure. This issue is being teased out at present and is a requirement in rural Ireland. I emphasise its purpose is not to displace taxis but simply to ensure there is some form of provision in place to enable communities in rural areas to go about their business, socialise, etc., in a safe environment. Everyone is aware of anecdotes concerning arrangements in different parishes whereby people get lifts, only for tenners to be left on seats and so on. This simply is unacceptable and one is merely waiting for an accident to happen at which point someone will ask why the Government did not do something about it. This is the reality, as I live in rural Ireland and know it well. There also is the issue of community cars but I accept Deputy Pringle's point in particular regarding the subject of hackneys, examining that space and ascertaining how closely together they can be brought. However, I believe this must happen, as rural Ireland is suffering detrimentally and this measure, together with a realigned rural transport scheme, can really help in this regard. This is the reason I am making so many efforts on this issue.

A personal ambition is to ensure the issue regarding those with a requirement for wheelchair taxis is dealt with completely and rapidly. It is unacceptable for people to receive subsidised licences on the basis they will offer this service, only to see them pulling up at Dublin Airport with a load of golf clubs in the back. This is not acceptable. I accept the cost of and specification for these cars are way too high and I am working on a separate measure to bring down those specifications. Moreover, it is intended to create a centralised system whereby those who need such services will be able to place an order. As a result, in the case of someone who refuses to meet the passenger or accept the booking on a number of occasions, there will be a consequence for that person. I believe this to be appropriate and that all Members share my views in that regard.

I will conclude by making the point that over the past year and a half or more, I know of no other Minister who has met industry figures as often as have I. I met them before and as part of the review. I received deputations, accepted submissions and have met groups throughout the country. Moreover, I continue to get representations and I deal with them as much as I can. However, there is a point at which one must make decisions. The industry is extremely fragmented and there are many disparate groups. One probably cannot put two different groups or even two different taxi drivers into a room and get them to agree on things because they simply will not. All Members present are aware of that and are all smiling and laughing because it is the truth. That said, I acknowledge they have genuine concerns. They have been represented and I have taken on each issue and digested it to come out with the best solution possible within the legal parameters that exist. I hope Members respect the point that legal parameters are in place and my Department is bringing forth a combination of this legislation with the regulatory changes, comprising more than 46 measures, that are being put in place in tandem with this Bill. Collectively, this will lead to a better and far superior industry in the coming years. I look forward to the Committee Stage debate later, when I intend to introduce amendments. I also will consider all amendments tabled by any Members at that Stage. I thank Deputies for their time.

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