Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am sure the same treaty obligation put on an obligation on EU institutions, yet consider the discussion we had in recent months about agreeing its budget. The European Parliament gets to discuss the EU budget - what it takes in and receives from us - but we do not have an equivalent and reciprocal debate, yet we are governed by the same treaty. If the same debate can be held at European level, it should be possible to have it here.

In respect of payments to the ESM, I know there are very large amounts of money but I suspect that very few members of the public are aware that those payments are going through because they are not being discussed here. There is no reason that items like the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and election posting cannot be included in the Estimates and if, for example, there is to be a referendum that was not planned, a figure could be included as part of the Estimate that would be brought forward to cover the actual referendum.

The Minister understands my point. He will probably not accept these 13 amendments. He did not accept them on Committee Stage and I do not expect him to accept them here. It is a point we will wish to revisit separately from this legislation because €10 billion should not be spent each year on behalf of the Irish taxpayer without a debate in the Chamber. Perhaps it would not happen in the voted expenditure mechanism about which we are discussing but there should be a debate. A payment of €8 billion or €9 billion should not be made each year in respect of the national debt as if the Members of the Dáil and Seanad could not even have a discussion of the matter. They may not have the power to amend it but I think they could.

The Minister refers to international obligations and legally binding agreements. In respect of the promissory note, every known agreement that we draw down is always subject to renegotiation if the NTMA can source other funds and perhaps re-finance it in a better way. That is what the NTMA does every day of the week. It tries to re-finance some of the existing loans in a better manner so there is an ebb and flow in these matters each year, yet we are not allowed to have that debate. The Minister knows my views well.

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