Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 12, line 40, after "device," to insert the following:"including a record of phone calls to and from a landline or a mobile phone,".

I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments on some of the amendments I have tabled. This amendment follows on from one we discussed on Committee Stage. I asked that cloud computing be included in the definition of "documents". I think I heard the Minister say that information in the cloud was going to be included.

I accepted all of this. On Committee Stage when introducing amendments the Minister stated he wanted to be sure to be sure. He used the Irish version of the phrase but I am not as conversant in Irish as he is, not being a teacher, and Irish was not well-taught in the midlands when I was going to school.

Amendment No. 1 is with regard to the definition of documents. The Bill mentions various discs and mechanical and electronic devices. I want to be sure to be sure we will include in the definition of records covered in the legislation records of telephone calls to and from a landline or a mobile telephone. Amendment No. 2 refers to transcripts of telephone calls to or from a landline or mobile telephone.

We have had further discussion on this matter in the Chamber with the Taoiseach, and the Minister for Finance indicated today he has either recently written to AIB and Bank of Ireland or intends to do so in the morning to ensure any records, tapes or other recordings of telephone calls which might be necessary for any future banking inquiry or to help get to the bottom of the financial situation in the banks over a period of time would be retained by them for such use. He feels this needs to be covered and I am reflecting this view in the amendments.

I want to be sure and very specific, particularly as last week there was so much discussion on the issue of telephone calls and taped telephone calls. We have read 25 minutes worth of the transcripts in the Irish Independentover the past ten days and apparently this is out of 250 hours of telephone calls. I am sure far more calls were recorded in the other banks and they would be equally as interesting. Perhaps transcripts of all telephone calls have not been made in some of these places, but I am sure it would not be proper corporate governance for institutions such as the Central Bank, the Office of the Financial Regulator, AIB, Bank of Ireland and other financial institutions not to record major telephone calls, as millions of euro can hang on what is said on a particular telephone call or on a person's recollection or understanding of it.

I will give a simple little example. Last year, I queried a VHI travel insurance payment as I felt I was charged on the double. I was told it was based on an instruction I had received the previous year but I disputed this. Two days later VHI in Kilkenny telephoned me back to tell me the recording of the call which had been made to 12 months previously had been checked and it was not quite clear either way so I was given the benefit of the doubt.

I expect most sophisticated telephone exchange systems in Government Buildings, Government offices and AIB allow for automatic recording. I want to be absolutely sure all records, including telephone calls to landlines and mobiles lines, are specifically included in the definition. I know the Minister will state they are, but the legislation will allow for the establishment of Oireachtas inquiries. I will make a bigger point later on whether there can ever be a banking inquiry after the performance of the Taoiseach and other members of the Government in recent days, as the matter has been so politicised the House has shown itself to be inherently, individually and structurally biased and a banking inquiry could not properly take place without legal challenge by those being inquired into. It may have been possible up to now but it is no longer possible as a result of recent statements. However we do want to know about the other tapes in other institutions and ensure they are all protected.

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