David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

As Chairman of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, I am pleased to speak on the legislation. The committee visited Cork Prison on 25 October 2012. In keeping with Deputy Dara Murphy's comments, I invite anyone who criticises prisons for not being tough enough to spend a few nights in Cork Prison to see how they get on. I pay tribute to the staff of the prison, given the conditions in which they work. The tension in the prison is palpable as one moves around. I felt threatened not because of anything anyone said, did or expressed through body language but because of the proximity of people in an overcrowded space.

I was delighted during our visit to be briefed on the decision the Minister had made on his first visit to the prison that things would not continue as they were. For many years there have been plans to build a prison in Munster. There was a plan to build a super prison on Spike Island, which I felt would not work and did not support. There was a plan to build a prison at Kilworth, which did not go ahead. Finally, we see tangible, concrete plans to build a prison in Cork city adjacent to the old one. While I acknowledge that residents have some concerns, I note that a great deal of work has been done to address them by the Minister, the Minister of State and departmental officials. That is welcome.

Mention has been made of single cells. I understand there will be quite a number shared cells in the new prison. The facilities which are put in place will represent a very significant improvement on what is there now. There will be no comparison. I understand that, as far as possible, cells will be occupied singly. Of course, there will be times when double occupancy is necessary.

The joint committee produced a report on penal reform which was referred to by Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn. The report contains five strong recommendations. As part of our work, we visited Finland. We were told that it had one of the best penal systems in the world. There are 27 prisons there, of which 15 are closed and 12 are open. The rate of recidivism is very low, at approximately 35%, whereas in Ireland it is quite high, at over 50%. In Finland prison is viewed as old-fashioned. Quite a large number of people spend time engaged in community service and out of prison. The committee has requested that the recommendations made in our report be debated in the autumn, which I would like to see happen. We have recommended reducing prison numbers by commuting prison sentences of less than six months and through the use of community service orders; increasing standard remission from one quarter to one third; introducing an incentivised remission scheme of up to one half; introducing legislation providing for structured release, temporary release, parole and community return; and addressing prison conditions, overcrowding and the increased use of open prisons. When these policies were adopted in Finland, crime rates fell. Some people think the only answer to crime is hang them, flog them, lock them up and throw away the key. In some areas in which that approach has been taken, crime has increased. In some US states that policy is now being reversed as it is extraordinarily expensive and does not work. We must examine best practice and the jurisdictions in which it has been successful. We were hugely impressed by what we saw in Finland. I call on the Chief Whip to organise a debate on the report of the joint committee when we return after the summer vacation. I would like to see the recommendations made implemented as soon as possible.

Incarceration must take place of people who are dangerous and where people need an opportunity to reflect on a crime which has hurt others and society, as in the case of white collar crime, with which we really need to get to grips. People who go to prison will not be there forever. We must work to ensure that whatever danger they posed to society before they entered prison has been removed and that they can be reintegrated into society. There are major challenges, but agencies such as IASIO, the Probation Service and parole boards do a huge amount of work to address them. I pay tribute to these organisations and those who work with them.

We must consider all prisons in the State. The joint committee has visited a number of them. We noted that at a prison in the midlands prisoners were involved with Samaritans. A number of prisoners had been trained to listen and it was quite impressive. One prisoner said a male prison was a macho environment, but while prisoners act tough in the yard, they often cry themselves to sleep at night. For many, mental health issues and being away from family, etc., have an impact. I reiterate that where offenders have done evil acts, there should be a certain degree of punishment involved; they should be removed from society for a while, and they should have a chance to reflect on what they have done, but the day in question was an eye-opener. When offenders leave prison, if the supports are not available on the outside, they will end up back in prison again before too long. We must look at why our recidivism rates are so high.

Recently, I undertook a study of community courts in New York, where I was highly impressed by the fact that they tried to prevent offenders from going to prison, if possible, and increasingly used community service orders. I note the Minister and the Department are encouraging the use of such orders, where possible. The Judiciary, of course, is totally independent and it is totally up to it to decide what sanctions should be imposed under the law. In many other jurisdictions community service has been shown to be highly effective, but it must be backed up with other supports and services. There is an organisation in Wexford, the Cornmarket Project, which does tremendous work in the area of anger management and in looking at the whole life experiences of a person to determine the issues that lead him or her to commit crime. It is quite impressive. I met those involved and they were here on a number of occasions to make presentations to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. They are highly professional, effective and successful. That is the kind of project at which we should be looking.

There is a considerable amount of work going on in all of the committees in the Houses. Often, this work does not receive the publicity and airing that it needs and deserves. If we are talking about Oireachtas reform, we need to start looking at the work committees do, including that being done on the issue of penal reform by the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. The Acting Chairman, Deputy Joanna Tuffy, was also a member of the committee for some of that period. I refer also to the report on the review of legislation on prostitution in Ireland that the committee launched this morning.

This is an important event and I am anxious to see construction work start as quickly as possible.

I will comment on the fact that the main Opposition party has again abandoned the House. When my party was in opposition, that rarely, if ever, happened. We always manned the benches. Why is the main Opposition spokesman on Justice not present? He should be sitting here for the entire debate. It is disgraceful that Fianna Fáil abandons the House on such a regular basis.

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