Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the comments of Deputy Penrose, who clearly has a wide knowledge of this area. I am aware how worrying this is for the type of people Deputy Penrose has referred to who are coming close to retirement. Many defined benefit pension schemes have been contributed to by employees and, it must be said, employers in good faith. It is unfortunate that what has happened on the financial markets has delivered for several schemes the worst of all worlds.

It is important to get the indications from the submission of funding proposals with regard to where schemes stand. A great deal of work has been done in several schemes to provide for re-funding of schemes with contributions from workers and employers. My objective is to provide for the maximum protection for as many as possible. There have been discussions with the various stakeholders. As Deputy Penrose noted, this is a quadrangle or a stool of four legs, one of which is existing pensioners. The Deputy will be aware that many pensioners in defined benefit schemes are on pensions of below €12,000 and below €24,000. The number of pensioners on relativity high pensions are in the minority in many schemes.

We can all agree that people who have handsome pensions should contribute, but in many cases their contribution alone would be insufficient. Therefore, we need to consider where the balance should lie. We must consider the interests of current pensioners, many of whom are on a fixed income. Some have a supplementary State pension, depending on the type of employment they were in, but not all. There are deferred members as well. There are current members, paying in now, some of whom may be coming close to retirement. As Deputy Penrose stated, these are the people for whom this is a serious concern and I recognise and acknowledge that. There are the scheme trustees and the various advisers to schemes. The Government has a strong interest in providing the maximum protection in so far as it is possible to all the various parties. We need to consider the situation of the employers and the nature of the contributions they should make to ensure the survival of schemes and the best possible outcomes. I acknowledge the work good employers have done in this respect and it is important for that work to be understood. Promises were made in many cases but only when we see the funding proposals will we have a better picture of the extent to which those promises are capable of being fulfilled.

Deputy Penrose's question primarily relates to an insolvency situation. The Waterford Crystal case relates to a double insolvency situation, which is currently before the Irish courts. It will be interesting and important to see what view and approach the Irish courts will take in respect of the judgment of the European Court of Justice. The workers involved won their case comprehensively on all seven points put forward. I assure the Deputy that this issue has the highest priority in my Department. By the end of this month we will have a significant level of information on funding proposals submitted by the various schemes, as required by the regulator, and we will have a clearer picture of the situation of various schemes at that point. The regulator has undertaken to work with the various schemes to ensure the best possible outcomes in what is a difficult situation.

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