Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am pleased to be able to speak on the Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012. It is easy to be wise in hindsight and we all learn from the mistakes of the past. We also have a better understanding now of the terrible tough economic times for those from all walks of life. The Bill provides for the granting of an amnesty and immunity from prosecution where appropriate to members of the Irish Defence Forces who fought on the Allied side and were found guilty of desertion by military tribunal or dismissed en masse by the Emergency Powers Order (No. 362) 1945. The amnesty is an acknowledgement that the treatment received in consequence of desertion is now considered to have been unduly harsh and acceptance that the acts occurred during the special circumstances of the Second World War. It is an apology for the treatment and exoneration in respect of these acts. The Bill explicitly limits State liability and does not contain compensation. The amnesty does not constitute a presidential pardon under Article 13 of the Constitution. I have no problem with any of this and many of the people involved have no wish to receive compensation. As other speakers stated, they and their families wish to have the stigma removed.

I was brought up at a time and in a community which did not agree with their desertion or their fighting with the Allied forces, but time is a great healer. Now I agree we should consider pardoning them. We must put ourselves in the context of those awful times and the encouragement the men received from the late General O'Duffy and others to go and fight. We must also consider the sheer economic hardship they faced. It was easy for them to flee across the Border after leaving the Army, or deserting, whatever one wants to call it, and receive higher remuneration. If they wished to do so they had ease of access and did not have to get there by flying or by water. At the time, efforts, demands and appeals were being made to bring remuneration in the Irish Defence Forces in line with what was paid by the British armed forces to make it more desirable for people to stay rather than to go and fight, as it involved a huge risk.

During the First World War four very respected members of my community in Newcastle in south Tipperary lost their lives. I am glad a historical committee in the village has spent the past 12 months working on proper recognition of those who lost their lives during the First World War, which is only right and proper in the fullness of time. Last Sunday week the village celebrated the 90th anniversary of the late General Liam Lynch, chief of staff of the IRA, who lost his life in 1923 on the Knockmealdown mountains and I wish to thank uachtarán Fhianna Fáil, Deputy Micheál Martin, for attending. I do not know where the memorial for those who died during the First World War will be placed, but it would be only right and proper that both are located adjacent to each other so people can understand in peace time that they gave their lives for motives in which they believed. We commemorate Liam Lynch every year, but his 90th anniversary was special and it is good that the community is big, strong and able enough to recognise both traditions and the people who lost their lives. I look forward to participating in it and will give any support I can to the committee.

At the time there was a fear of major desertion so certain action had to be taken and any Army would have done so. We see it in the army of government here with the whip being cracked, and I have experience of this from the previous Government. One must keep people in line for cannon fodder or voting fodder. The troops must be marshalled whether in politics or the military. The historical background to the Bill is that desertion from the Irish Defence Forces during the Second World War amounted to between 6,000 and 7,000 men. The majority of these crossed the Border and joined the British Army or found a job working in the war industry, which was huge and included Harland and Wolff and others in the Six Counties. This was a relatively high desertion rate, as in 1940 the size of the Defence Forces was approximately 42,000.

The Irish intelligence service, G2, tried to discourage desertion from the Defence Forces with mixed results. In 1942 almost three quarters of deserters were apprehended, but only one third were apprehended during the first eight months of 1943. Approximately 5,000 of those deserting joined the British Army and fought against fascism. This figure should be seen in the context of an estimated 80,000 ordinary Irish citizens who volunteered to fight for Britain during the war. This is an important contextual figure and we cannot lose sight of it. The precise reasons so many individual soldiers chose to desert are not fully known. There is some evidence that economic necessity played a role. In 1941 the secretary of the Department of Defence urged the Cabinet to raise military pay to British levels to stem the tide of desertion.

One could certainly see that happening in those times of economic hardship so shortly after gaining our independence. While a modest increase was approved in 1941, pay levels and allocations still lagged behind those of the British Army. The Emergency Powers Act of 1939 to 1945 followed the approval of a position of neutrality in the Second World War. On 2 September 1939, the Oireachtas passed a Bill to amend Article 28.3.3^oof the Constitution. The article provided that during time of war or armed rebellion, the government, following a resolution of the Houses of the Oireachtas, could assume emergency powers. The amendment widened the interpretation of a "time of war" to include a time when armed conflict is taking place that affects the vital interests of the State even if the State is not directly involved and even if, after the war or conflict has ceased, the Oireachtas resolves that the emergency created by the conflict still exists.

Put in context, that situation is quite easy to understand and accept. I know of people who could not come home on holidays and were not made to feel welcome because the stigma never left them. In the fullness of time, however, we can forgive and forget. We must do so. We should let those people enjoy life and have a certain degree of respect in the community. While it may have been seen differently then, they were different times with different regimes. Many of them were encouraged to go to war.

I support the Bill, unpalatable as it might be to some of my own supporters and those who like to honour the name of Liam Lynch. It is time to be broad minded and inclusive in accepting the reasons for, and the good faith of, what happened. Many such people lost their lives, as well. I will not lecture anyone on the issues of that time and neither will I accept any lectures from people who want to rewrite history and blame the government of the day. It had to protect its own army and it was not too long after gaining independence. In addition, we were a neutral country. We can have a debate on neutrality but it was needed in order to shore up our defences and stop a major desertion of soldiers at the time. In understanding and accepting the context of the time, it is important now to move on and pass this Bill.

I do not agree with the Minister on many matters but in this case I do. The Emergency Powers Act Order was pretty stiff at the time. In October 1945, the then government used those powers to issue the Emergency Powers Order No. 362 of 1945 which was signed by the then Taoiseach, Éamon de Valera. It was designed to deal with returning soldiers who had deserted the Irish Defence Forces to serve with the British Army during the Second World War. The order provided that any member of the Irish Defence Forces who had deserted or absented themselves from the service without being granted official leave for 180 days or more during the Emergency period, which commenced on 3 September 1939, could be dismissed from the Defence Forces for desertion. The order explicitly stated that a member of the Defence Forces did not include an officer of the Defence Forces. Even in those days we can see that there was a large degree of "them and us" with one law for officers and another for lower ranks.

As a consequence of the order, just under 5,000 soldiers were dismissed en masseon their return to Ireland. I am sure that must have been very unpalatable and hard on their families. At the time, the issue was raw and sore, and feelings were running high. Under section 4 of the order there were further consequences for those dismissed. The section stipulated that those dismissed were disqualified for seven years from any public or civil service employment, including employment with local authorities or a position on any board or office established by statute, such as the ESB.

Although it was a fledgling organisation at the time, the ESB was doing a huge amount of work bringing electrification to rural Ireland. Such jobs were freely available so that was a punishment because such people could not get work to provide for their families. Furthermore, they would have no pension entitlements from the day they abandoned their Irish Army positions and no entitlement to receive unemployment assistance under the Unemployment Insurance Act 1945. That was stiff medicine but, as I said, those were different times. I will not condemn the former Members of this House who voted for those measures then. It happened in a different context and they were harsh times.

We have our own business to deal with now. I have said more than once that what is happening now with the economic ruin of our country - the economic rape and plunder of our country - is the third world war without any bullets being fired. It is being fought with the euro and I believe that we are showing the white flag to Germany again. I was on the government benches in the last Dáil and voted for the bank guarantee because we were told that we had to save the banks on that fatal - not fateful - night. We were told that do anything else would bring us over the abyss. I was certainly told that and I had to vote in that context. We have learned since, however, that the government was lied to through the teeth by the banks, bankers and speculators.

During Leaders' Questions today, I raised with the Taoiseach the fact that the bondholders were being spared everything. We now know the position from IMF sources, which I felt all along from the body language, because I have met with the troika four times. At the time, I stated that the IMF was more afraid of us than our European colleagues. I am straying.

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