Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I apologise. However, I am most concerned about those in the 18 to 22 age bracket who have endured the public embarrassment that goes with being convicted for minor offences. However, many of their lifestyle choices are affected by the fact that they have such convictions on their records. As Deputy Olivia Mitchell correctly stated, unfortunately we are for whatever reason in a situation where the only choice many have in seeking employment is to leave the country. The trend in this regard will I hope be short lived. We have the opportunity to clarify the position of those who have convictions for minor offences once and for all in order that they might travel abroad if they so desire.

The Irish Penal Reform Trust does superb work. The Bill gives us the opportunity to discuss what we want from the justice system. Do we want rehabilitation and restoration? Do we want people to learn from their mistakes? Do we want such individuals to re-enter society, not repeat their offences, keep below the radar and live peacefully out of harm's way? Are we seeking retribution from the justice system? For many, we are seeking both. Every crime has a victim and every victim will want a certain element of retribution.

Those of us who are seeking a spent convictions regime want to change the position on convictions for relatively minor offences. It is on foot of such offences that people learn. It is because of them that they enter the criminal justice system and they will I hope learn their lesson and choose a different path. Unfortunately, people choose not to do so and there are many repeat offenders. Deputy John O'Mahony identified a serious problem in that regard, namely, the fact that repeat offenders continue to enjoy access to legal support at taxpayers' expense. I am all for a fair system of justice and everyone has the right to representation. However, when individuals repeatedly seek to access such representation, something must be done. In the context of other spheres of public expenditure, people who had committed crimes would not be allowed to repeatedly return and access what was on offer. There are no members of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in the Chamber, but I am aware that the Chairman, Deputy David Stanton, has indicated his intention to do some work in this area. There is no doubt that it requires consideration.

The Irish Penal Reform Trust has raised a couple of concerns about the Bill. I refer, in particular, to the limiting of rehabilitation periods. It is welcome that the Minister made changes in this regard in the Seanad and I hope he will make further changes on Committee Stage. The shortening of the conviction period to three to seven years is an improvement on what he originally proposed, but it could be reduced further to two to four years. After all, we are discussing minor offences. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn has made the point that it is after conviction and that by the time one eventually gets to court, one's chance to expunge the conviction is arising at a time when one should be obtaining the work experience one needs in order to create the foundations for one's career. As a result of convictions such as those to which I refer hanging over people, they will not get the opportunity to obtain such experience. As Deputy Olivia Mitchell stated, the offences in question are minor and a person could have obtained a conviction for committing such an offence in circumstances utterly beyond his or her control or because he or she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Irish Human Rights Commission has been significantly and sharply more critical of the Bill. We agree with the commission that the Bill must be viewed in the context of National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012. The two are similar and their provisions cross into similar areas. It would be foolish in the extreme to implement the Bill before the House while completely ignoring the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012. Where the two dovetail, steps should be taken.

The issue of discrimination on the grounds of a conviction for employment purposes must be examined. I have a certain sympathy for employers who have a right to know about someone's background. They also have the right to know whether something someone did in the past is going to influence or impact on the manner in which he or she will undertake his or her work. Employers have a right to know, but they do not have a right to discriminate. If a particular candidate is the best person for the job, an employer does not have the right to discriminate on the basis of a previous minor conviction.

That should be expunged at that stage.

I am not fully in favour of Deputy Mitchell's proposal that the entire conviction should be expunged. The employer has a right to know, and any potential candidate who has respect for a potential employer would admit to the offence, but some work needs to be done on that. A complete expungement as proposed by Deputy Mitchell probably goes a little too far.

I welcome the Bill. There is much to be improved on Committee Stage. The Minister is not the most generous in accepting Opposition amendments. He might do so on this Bill given the general all-party agreement at this Stage on it. He accepted some amendments in the Seanad before Christmas. He is probably in better humour now, but any amendments put forward on the Bill are for the good of the Bill and the good of those it seeks to address, particularly younger people who have made genuine mistakes who want to restart their lives. I hope the Minister would examine any amendments proposed in that context and also in the context of groups such as the Irish Penal Reform Trust, which does super work in this area and challenges all our perceptions about penal reform.

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