Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome Deputy Ó Snodaigh's Bill. Anything that can be done in this Chamber and Parliament with cross-party co-operation to secure the best possible return for the taxpayer and to target the people who need to avail of help from the State should be done.

The Bill proposes to provide social welfare recipients with an opportunity to voluntarily disclose and report irregularities in their existing social welfare payments and to have their rate of payment regularised. We have to examine this proposal from both sides. There is merit in it but having regard to work that has been done by the Department during the past 25 years resources are very scarce. The Deputy has also done a great deal in recent years to tackle welfare fraud.

One finds that in many cases people who defraud the welfare system are not in a position to avail of social welfare but they seem to understand how the system operates. As a politician I have gone into homes and talked to people about the welfare system and the way they have been able to tell me how the system works has been a revelation. I know from having talked to people that the large number of different schemes introduced under the term of the previous Government during the past 14 years is mind-boggling and one would need to be a barrister or an accountant to understand the range of help that is available, but unfortunately they were not monitored. At that time we thought we had full employment, an the economy in which we were effectively selling houses to one another and the State seemed awash with money but unfortunately many schemes not only in the area of social welfare but in every other area of business were open to abuse. The State did not look after taxpayers' money as wisely as it should have.

The introduction of social welfare amnesties have been tried in this country in the past and from I have heard from the Department they have been deemed not to have worked very well. There are many issues to be considered in this respect.

Overpayments have been a factor over the years and the Department saved €400 million last year. When a recipient was overpaid by, say, €30,000 or €40,000 in the past a very meagre payment of €10 a week or €20 a month was offered and sometimes people were under pressure. When the penalty does not match the crime it is in anybody's interest who wants to defraud the social welfare system to take the chance to do so. What we as a Government have to do now with the minimum of resources is to legislate against people abusing the system.

A total of €51.5 million in overpayments was recovered in 2011, which is an increase on the €34.5 million figure for 2010. The figure for 2012 will be available in the coming months and I suspect it will be much higher. On the issue of whistleblowers, over 28,000 reports were received in 2011, an increase on 13,000 in 2010. Many people are very angry. They see their next door neighbours, members of their extended family or people with whom they socialise getting social welfare payments to which they are not entitled. There is a great deal of anger that the money is not targeted at the right people.

I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for his work. We all agree that social welfare fraud is a serious matter which, along with other fraud, must be tackled. The Government is working extremely hard to check overspending. I come from an area near the Border and there has been a great deal of cross-Border social welfare fraud by people who are not entitled to claim in this State. The system seemed to be very laissez faire. No person was asked for passports or identity documents. That has changed now and I welcome the fact that there will be a new passport-type card with a photograph. One will not be able to go into nine or ten different social welfare offices and claim social welfare to which one is not entitled.

I am concerned about the level of disability in this country, which is far greater than in any other country. It seems doctors' letters were sent in and there were no checks. People who appear to be in great health seem to have a disability. I do not know what the problem is but it is obvious that this matter went unchecked. Unfortunately, over the years the disability payments of people who deserve and need help from the State have, effectively, been diluted by people claiming disability payments who are simply not disabled. I believe doctors took the easy way out.

The same thing happened with the disability grant or the heating grant, as it was called. This grant was provided to elderly or disabled people to allow them to install a shower or build an extension to the house to make it habitable for them. People called it the windows grant or the heating grant, and everybody applied for it. People who did not apply for it were probably seen as not availing of something to which they were entitled. However, it was put in place for one reason: so that elderly people could have mobility and remain in their homes. Builders and contractors took advantage of this. They saw €20,000 on the table from the grant and said they would charge €25,000. It was part of that complete madness at the time. Six or seven years ago the local authorities had three systems. The letter from the doctor would say whether one was disabled, had a moderate disability or could wait a little longer. There was a spiral effect because money was available and everybody decided they would carry out work regardless of whether they needed it. There are many houses, some of which are probably derelict now, on which €20,000 to €50,000 was spent installing heating, building extensions and so forth. It was not always to provide for the grandmother, grandfather, mother or father, as it should have been, but was spent because the house would be worth more with those additions. That 14 years of complete madness and waste had to be brought to a halt.

I pay tribute to the Department on the work it has done. As a man told me, over the years every diocese organised a trip to Lourdes and every year the diocese would look for five or six people from the parish who wanted to go on the trip. A collection was held for them. The joke now is that many people who are on disability payments will not go to Lourdes in case they are cured. It is an anecdote, but if one looked through the figures over the years, one would see that the level of disability in this country meant that either we were very unfortunate in having many accidents or, as I believe, we had a Department that for 14 years just dished out the money without checking. People are human. If somebody has a sore back or sore leg and is encouraged to apply for the benefit, he or she will do so. Unfortunately, however, it affects the people who greatly need it. We have not done a service to the many disability organisations that have fought for their members because we have extended it too far. The people who need and deserve the benefit are the people who should get it.

Again, I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for introducing this Bill. A great deal of work has gone into it. Members are busy in their daily political lives dealing with the issues and with constituents. Deputy Ó Snodaigh's constituency is a marginalised one and he works extremely hard there. The Bill serves to remind us that we are national legislators and regardless of whether I agree with the Bill, Deputy Ó Snodaigh is trying to do something that will make it easier for the Department to address the issue. Overall, however, the introduction of an amnesty would be inconsistent. The policy direction in the last two and a half years has been very good and I thank the Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, for the work she has done. I know people who work in the Department and people who have retired from the Department and they have told me it is about time somebody addressed the issues that were waiting to be addressed for the previous ten or 14 years. Many people in the Department are delighted that the Minister has stood up to be counted. She is delivering to the people who need it most, as well as dealing with welfare fraud. She is ensuring that the taxpayers' money is well spent and targeted at the right areas. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to speak on this Bill.

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