Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on the Bill, with which I do not agree because it is indiscriminate. It would reward the deliberate fraudster in the same way as the person who accidentally received an overpayment. It does not propose any means by which they can be differentiated. The person who deliberately sets out to defraud the system would benefit dramatically by way of achieving a satisfactory conclusion to his or her deliberate attempt to defraud the system. It is sometimes suggested in this House during expressions of concern for persons who are, unfortunately, out of work and dependent on social welfare payments that they all come from one part of society or the political divide, but that is not the case. We must always be concerned about the people who elect us to whom we are responsible. We have a responsibility to ensure their welfare.

It needs to be stated categorically that we are all concerned about those who are dependent on social welfare payments. During these very difficult times we are particularly concerned when there is downward social pressure, including on those at work and those in receipt of social welfare payments. People have great difficulty in meeting their commitments. In this regard, we must recognise the needs of those who depend on social welfare payments whose needs are already determined under the system for means-testing entitlements. Those legitimately in receipt of social welfare payments and those at work are concerned about the person who is working while also being in receipt of a social welfare payment. This is also a cause for concern among employers. If one employer is able to access employees who, wrongly, have the backup of a social welfare payment, a competitor is placed at a significant disadvantage in that one worker is being subsidised by the State, while the other is not. More important, it is unfair on the person who is completely dependent on social welfare payments who does not have the benefit of a backup payment.

Not everyone in receipt of a social welfare payment while in employment is a fraudster. Such a person may be working a three-day week or in receipt of a disability payment which at a certain stage permits employment to ascertain if it is possible for him or her to return to the workplace. Something is not always what it seems or is perceived to be. Therefore, the person in receipt of a social welfare payment may not be working illegally.

A problem exists in that there is a difficulty transferring from unemployment assistance to employment, and vice versa. The transfer procedure is difficult and laborious and it takes considerable time. Consequently, there is a tendency for one to feel encouraged to defraud the system. An individual who gets a job for a week or two may not sign off for the duration of the work owing to the associated difficulties. This is the danger. It is a danger to the social welfare recipient, his family and the integrity of the social welfare system. It is certainly a danger to the Exchequer because if everybody neglected to sign off in the aforementioned circumstances, we would have a serious problem.

I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, is as familiar with the social welfare system as any of the rest of us. We need a new system of the kind made possible by the use of readily achievable credit card-type authentication. We need a system such that a person who obtains short-term employment for a week or two can leave the social welfare system and return to it after work without a break in continuity. This is not as difficult to achieve as it was some years ago because of modern technology. I ask that a special effort be made to achieve it. It would be of benefit to all recipients of social welfare and would indicate that everybody is being treated equally. It would indicate to legitimate prospective employers and illegitimate employers that there is a system of verification. We should strive to achieve this, particularly at a time when budgets are squeezed annually.

During my time in public life – I have been in it for a few years, as has the Leas-Cheann Comhairle – I have always noticed that the Opposition is usually very flaithiúlach in its proposals to spend money.

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