David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

We have reached a certain position after many years and we are where we are right now. I have met people and we have all been lobbied strongly on this issue. I have met people from the Pro-Life Campaign. One of its documents states:

The most important option not contained in the report is to reverse the Supreme Court decision of 1992, which would allow for abortion up to birth [according to it]. If people do not want to introduce such an abortion regime in this country, this is the only political option and it has to be confronted.

That is one option. After having had two referenda, I am not sure the people would agree with what the Pro-Life Campaign wants. My feeling is that they would not. I met some people from the Pro-Life Campaign and they said the same. They said they thought the people would not reverse the Supreme Court decision of 1992. We could possibly have a "preferendum" on it or some other kind of poll. I note that recent polls agreed with that. Putting that aside for the moment, we are where we are. The Medical Council guidelines published in 2009 state:

Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother. Under current legal precedent, this exception includes where there is a clear and substantial risk to the life of the mother arising from a threat of suicide. You should undertake a full assessment of any such risk in light of the clinical research on this issue.

That is the current situation as interpreted by the Medical Council in its guidelines and advice to its members. Recent research has found that 94% of people say that doctors are trustworthy, which is good.

The fifth progress report of the all-party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution makes for fascinating reading. Five minutes is not much time to give to this matter. That report refers to rare and complicated cases and states that protecting the life of the mother is paramount. It states that the scientific basis for medicine changes regularly. It also states that suicide rates in pregnancy are low at one sixth of the expected rates for women who are not pregnant and one 20th of actual rates. The numbers are small and the risk is small. Some of the experts who gave evidence in 1999 and 2000 said there is no failsafe way of saying a person will or will not commit suicide. They spoke about intervening to help individuals, to treat depression, to help stop drinking and so on. They also maintained that suicidal thoughts can be transient. Some experts maintained that the majority of people, who attempt or threaten suicide, are actually not mentally ill. They may have some kind of psychosis or feel they are a bad or unworthy person. They also quoted a Finnish study that indicated that abortion increases the chances of a woman committing a suicide after the abortion. Interestingly they said that an abortion will not undo rape.

Having said all that, we are still where we are legally and constitutionally. They talk about the law of the land and, as the Medical Council has stated, the basic law is our Constitution and it trumps every other law. Any law this House might pass must be in compliance with this, as interpreted by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has ruled and only the people in a referendum can undo what it decided. Now we are where we are and we have to abide by this. There are issues here. For instance the fifth progress report referred to the difference between abortion and miscarriage. It also states that a baby after 24 weeks is probably viable and that doctors at that stage are obliged to recognise that and to do everything they can to save a baby's life after 24 weeks.

This is another major issue because we have heard reports that pregnancies in other countries have been terminated after 24 weeks and the babies left to die. My interpretation is that after 24 weeks, doctors here are obliged to try to save the baby and keep him or her alive. The issue arises regarding how to deal with a suicidal person before 24 weeks and the risk that one could lose both.

I would be very interested in hearing the debate in the Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children on this issue. This forum is probably not the best one to tease out the detail and the committee will probably be the place to do that. I do not think we can or should have a referendum because we have to deal with the legal situation as the Constitution outlines and as the people have spoken way back. It is very complicated from a medical and legal point of view but we should be able to-----

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