Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:“acknowledges that the untold story of those women who were in Magdalene laundries needs to be listened to with compassion and the facts about the Magdalene laundries need to be established and made public;

is conscious of the need to respect the rights of all concerned;

notes that the Irish Human Rights Commission document entitled ‘Assessment of the Human Rights Issues Arising in relation to the “Magdalene Laundries'" in November 2010 had recommended in the context of a mechanism to investigate matters that:

— ‘such a mechanism should first examine the extent of the State’s involvement in and responsibility for:

— the girls and women entering the laundries;

— the conditions in the laundries;

— the manner in which girls and women left the laundries; and

— end-of-life issues for those who remained’;

welcomes the fact that this Government, shortly after taking office in 2011, decided to establish an interdepartmental committee on Magdalene laundries, chaired by an independent person, to establish the facts of State involvement in Magdalene laundries;

welcomes the fact that the religious congregations who ran the Magdalene laundries, those individuals who were in Magdalene laundries and their advocacy and representative groups have all engaged with the committee;

notes that Senator Martin McAleese, chairman of the committee, has recently advised that:— the committee has made excellent progress despite the considerable challenges faced;

and

— a significant level of information and documentation has been identified; however, relevant records continue to be identified by Government Departments and State agencies and the committee also continues to receive new submissions from representative and advocacy groups, with a submission in excess of over 100 pages only received from one such group as recently as 15 August 2012;agrees that it would be wrong for the committee to conclude its work without examining the additional material and welcomes the excellent progress made by the committee and the statement that the committee intends to present a substantial final report as soon as possible and at the latest before the end of this year; and

commits to an open and meaningful response once the interdepartmental committee has reported.”

I am here today on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to address the motion before the House. The first point I would like to make is that Members should be sensitive to the concerns of those who have been in Magdalene laundries. Both I and the Minister have met with many of the women who have been in Magdalene laundries and I understand Senator McAleese has met all of those who have come forward. All the women we met told their stories with a great deal of dignity and they deserve our respect. None of those we met were unmarried mothers and the branding of Magdalene laundries as a place for "fallen" women is a cause of great distress to them. We have also met with the various representative groups involved and those advocating on behalf of the women. We have listened carefully to all of them and we understand and share their desire, after so many years, to finally address their concerns and bring closure to this difficult chapter of their lives.

I assure the House that the Government is committed to addressing these issues. We began this process by establishing the interdepartmental committee under the independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese and we are fully committed to addressing these issues once the final report is received. At all times, we have been conscious of the need to progress these matters as quickly as possible. I have a lot of sympathy for the position of those who ended up in Magdalene laundries. I have long held this view and I know many of the women involved and what it meant for them. They existed in an era where Irish society could be harsh and even hostile to those less fortunate. It goes without saying, as I am sure many in this House will agree, that life in an institution can be a very poor substitute for the emotional and other support that is normally found in a family setting.

Turning to the Government amendment, the main point behind the amendment is that it is premature to have this debate without the benefit of Senator McAleese's report and the factual information it will bring. The Magdalene institutions that were still in operation when this State came into existence were all run by congregations of nuns. Like convents, they operated behind walls and closed doors, isolated from the mainstream of the community, and their story has not been told. The report of the interdepartmental committee will hopefully give us the first comprehensive, objective insight into that world. I do not doubt the sincerity of the women whom I have met and one must have sympathy with them for the hardships they faced and endured. Anyone who has read the Ryan report and its account of the industrial school system that operated in this State must be mindful of the possibility of abuses in other institutions run by religious orders. However, we cannot leap to conclusions without following fair procedures and trying in so far as we can to establish the facts.

As far as I am aware, allegations of abuse in Magdalene laundries has never been the subject of scrutiny by the courts, a commission of investigation or tribunal of inquiry, so the facts remain undetermined. I presume that is one of the reasons that led in June 2010 to the Justice for Magdalenes group contacting the Irish Human Rights Commission and requesting it to conduct an inquiry into the treatment of women and girls who resided in Magdalene laundries. The Irish Human Rights Commission decided not to conduct an inquiry. However, in its assessment published in November 2010, it considered that the issues raised warranted a statutory investigation. It recommended a two-stage approach. The first stage was to examine the extent of the State's involvement in and responsibility for what happened in the Magdalene laundries. Then, if State involvement and responsibility were established, a larger scale review of what occurred should take place and in appropriate cases redress should be granted where warranted. The previous Government did not take any action but within a month of taking office, this Government moved to set up the interdepartmental committee under the impeccable, independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese.

Senator McAleese was appointed to the chairmanship of the committee so as to ensure there would be full confidence in the workings of the committee and no legitimate issue could arise with regard to the committee properly fulfilling its mandate. Both the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and the Government are very grateful to Senator McAleese for undertaking this important task and for the commitment he has shown to it. From conversation with him, I know his job has not been easy. Membership of the committee is drawn from representatives of six Departments: Justice and Equality; Health; the Environment, Community and Local Government; Education and Skills; Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; and Children and Youth Affairs. Relevant Departments and State offices not represented on the committee have also been contacted with a view to checks being conducted on their records.

The committee was set up by the Government to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalene laundries, to clarify any State interaction and to produce a narrative detailing such interaction. It effectively is carrying out the first examination as recommended by the commission. It was deliberately decided not to start with a statutory inquiry. Our experience of statutory inquiries is that they are slow and expensive and the Government was conscious that many of the women concerned are elderly. It was confident that a non-statutory examination would be much quicker, less costly and equally, if not more, effective. The indications from Senator McAleese are that he expects to be in a position to submit a substantial final report in a matter of months, certainly before the end of the year. This will serve to confirm that the Government was right in taking this approach.

My understanding is that the religious congregations are giving their full co-operation. This is on a voluntary basis and has not given rise to the type of adversarial approach that often arises in statutory inquiries. I am glad to see that both the original motion and the Government amendment give due recognition to this co-operation. The House will know that the committee undertook to produce an interim report within three months of its establishment and that report was published within that timeframe, in October 2011. That report acknowledged the co-operation the committee was receiving from Departments, the religious orders and representative groups of women formerly resident in the laundries.

The committee also reported that extensive searches of all State records had commenced, with results being reported on a regular basis. While the interim progress report of the committee expressed the hope and intention that the committee could conclude its work by mid-2012, it pointed out that: "If the volume of records uncovered or available resources, including personnel, vary substantially from those currently anticipated, it may be necessary to adjust this intended time-line." I understand a significant level of information and documentation has already been identified by the committee and drafting of the final report has begun. However, relevant records continue to be identified and the committee also continues to receive new submissions from representative and advocacy groups. Indeed, a submission in excess of 100 pages was only recently received from one such group, on 15 August 2012. I am firmly of the view that the committee cannot be criticised for taking the time necessary to consider such material or any material which may of course have the potential to enhance the fact finding process and the eventual outcome of the committee's work.

Senator McAleese has advised that the committee intends to produce its final report as soon as possible, but at the latest before the end of the year. He has explained that information is still being identified which has the capacity to add to the overall outcome of the committee's work in a meaningful way. The committee feels that it would be improper to conclude without examining this additional information. The Minister and I have long believed that the issues raised by or on behalf of the women and girls who were resident in the Magdalene laundries must be addressed. We have great sympathy for these women and want to help in bringing some closure for the individuals concerned. The Government has put a process in place. All involved - the various Departments and agencies, the religious congregations who ran these institutions and the representative and advocacy groups of the women who formerly resided there - are co-operating with the process and we must now see it through. All the indications are that the report of the interdepartmental committee will put us in a position to have a meaningful debate on the issues raised by the different groups representing those who have been in Magdalene laundries and provide a proper response. The House is in full agreement on this issue.

Both the original motion and the Government amendment welcome the establishment of the committee and commit to an open and meaningful response to all the issues when the report is received. Indeed, the only difference is that the Government is not going to pre-empt the report of the committee by either making decisions or assertions. We have been told that we will have the report as soon as possible, and certainly before the end of year, which is only a matter of months. The only reasonable course of action now is to await the report. We will be better informed, the report will be published, and we will have a clearer understanding of the facts involved. In fairness to everyone, I believe we will be better placed then to respond fully to the issues and for that reason I commend the Government amendment to the House.

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