John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)

I jumped at the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill because I have quite a number of comments to make on moneylending. I grew up in Ballymun and still live there. As a result, I have first-hand experience of life in a family and neighbourhood where this is what people do if they want to borrow money. I do not like to make sweeping statements, but I imagine there are many Members of this House who have never witnessed at first hand what it is like borrow from a moneylender. The reality is that people do not borrow from them because it is an easy option. For many, it is the only option.

I am in complete agreement with the spirit of the Bill that has been brought forward by Deputy Pearse Doherty. However, I would like additional information to be provided in order that we might discover the exact amount being made in profit by moneylenders in Ireland. Is there, for example, concrete evidence which indicates that if we were to put a cap in place, licensed moneylenders would remain viable. As a previous speaker indicated, if we were to introduce a cap and some of the licensed moneylenders withdraw their services as a result, people would be forced to go to illegal moneylenders and that would make matters worse.

Everyone in the House will at some time or other have been obliged to borrow money to pay for Christmas presents or an event. Those who borrow from moneylenders use the money they obtain for the same purpose. However, some of them may borrow money to pay the for their TV licence. In that context, they will be obliged to pay an additional €100 on top of the €160 it costs to purchase such a licence. That is absurd. The activities of licensed moneylenders are regulated, but this type of thing is still allowed to happen. The difficulty is that those who borrow from moneylenders often have no other option. It is fine to state if we give everyone access to a bank account, this will be the beginning of the end of moneylending. I do not accept that. It is part of the solution, but a suite of measures will be required if we are to deal with this matter once and for all.

The culture of moneylending tends to be focused in areas in which there are high levels of disadvantage. There are large numbers in Ballymun, Finglas and similar places throughout the country who rely on moneylenders as a last resort. As Members are aware, those to whom I refer do their best to repay the loans they obtain. The fact is that when people who may be on low incomes or on social welfare get into that cycle, they get into a poverty trap. They might plan to spend a year paying off a loan they took out at Christmas, but if they need to get the house done up, or if a wedding or an unfortunate bereavement arises, they might not have paid it off by the time Christmas comes around again. People can get stuck in that cycle. We need to find some sort of solution to help them to get out of it. Some people have suggested some ideas in that regard.

I will give an example of such an idea. My niece Rebecca received over €900 when she made her confirmation a few months ago. My sister took her away on holidays to Bulgaria the other day. My mother told me that Rebecca had no money when she was going away. My sister had said she would try to ensure Rebecca put a certain amount of her confirmation money away as spending money for her holiday so she would not be asking her for money when they were away. None of the money was left, however. I genuinely think children need role models so that they appreciate the importance of trying to save a bit of money when they have it. We can all play a part in this longer-term solution.

Having worked in a school, I am aware that there are some really good schemes in our schools. This approach might not help people who are in debt now, but it will discourage those who have grown up believing one has to go to a moneylender if one needs money from getting involved in this activity. Many banks, credit unions and post offices run schemes in secondary schools to show people how to save. We are not necessarily talking about saving money. The first time I ever saved was when I was in third class, when I handed over 50p and received a "Cyril the Squirrel" savings stamp. Other Deputies probably did the same. If one filled one's book, one would be able to get £10 which could be placed in a bank or post office account. That was my introduction to saving. If there were more programmes of this nature, the number of people who do not know how to avoid debt problems would be reduced. I do not suggest it would solve the problems of those who are currently in debt, however. There are ways of stopping this cycle from repeating itself.

The information available to me suggests that the imposition of a cap, as proposed in this legislation, would not provide the full solution that is needed. If it did, I would be happy to support the proposal. I wish we could consider a more substantial proposal that would address some of the matters that have been raised in this debate. The reality is that those who engage in this form of borrowing have no other option. Those of us who borrow in other ways do not have to go to moneylenders. I remind those who participate in the debate on this issue that they are talking about real people with real lives. They are trying to make ends meet and to do the best thing for their families. That is what they want and what the rest of us want.

I cannot support this Bill, unfortunately. In the spirit of the proposal, I jumped at the opportunity to speak on it. I commend Deputy Doherty on this initiative. I hope we can find a more solid solution as part of a more comprehensive suite of measures aimed at addressing this issue. The reality is that people are being penalised. This country, despite the extent of its debts, is not having to pay the incredible interest rates these people are having to pay.

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