John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)

I compliment Deputy Troy on proposing this motion, which provides us with an opportunity to voice our opinions and concerns and make suggestions on this particularly important topic. This debate is long overdue. During the course of many debates in this House, be it on the economy or social issues, the arts and culture, which are so important to this country and to every county, are left behind.

I did not know when I stood beside the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, last weekend at Kilkenny Castle that we would be having this debate. I listened to what the Minister had to say when in Opposition and at some of the events which he attended, in particular those in Kilkenny. I do not question his passion or understanding of this area. At the centre of this is reform of the public service. As someone who has spoken about reform and who insists on it - I believe we need to reform most of our institutions in terms of costs and so on - I believe that we need to look at this area in the context of the value of the organisations and boards in place, what they have achieved and how best we can reorganise them. I have consulted with many people involved in those boards, be it in regard to arts, culture and so on. They understand the economics of all of this and the difficult space we are now in. They also understand the need to get greater value for money and for greater efficiencies in terms of the work they are doing. They are willing to contribute and to participate in that reform. The only question in this regard is how the Government achieves this while maintaining the independence of that group.

I witnessed the growth over many years of the Kilkenny arts festival and the growth in community interest in the arts and culture, through which people gained a greater understanding of the works of Tony O'Malley and Elizabeth Cope and so on. Their keen interest in the arts has helped them to understand their own heritage and tradition. Often people participate more fully following that type of experience. It would be damaging for us to interfere with or dismantle anything within that sector that is positive. We can talk about culture and art and the tourism associated with it and what that does for centres like Kilkenny and beyond - every county is now fully understanding in terms of the contribution that art and culture makes to their lives, tourism and the economy locally and nationally - but at the heart of this debate is how the Minister is going to proceed based on what he has heard on his journey around the country. I suggest that he should follow his heart and should not allow the Department, which can often engage in a little empire building, to take control of this valuable resource which it will later present as something quite different, which does not contribute in the way the various organisations currently do.

I have no doubt that if the Minister were to look to the memberships of the various boards he would find there are people who are willing to participate again at no cost to the State. This is where the Minister's energy should be directed in terms of seeking efficiencies, in co-operation with the organisations and communities which represent art and culture in this country. If the Minister does so and sticks with his own beliefs we would have something far more positive at the end of this process than what is currently planned by a Department that is looking at this in the context of quangos, which these organisations are not, and the savings that can be achieved. Perhaps there will be no savings.

In terms of reform, the Minister will need all the facts and figures. I would like to be convinced by what he is going to do. I am sure the Minister would like Members across the political divide to be convinced about what he is going to do.

The Minister would find the task of convincing us easier if it was on his terms rather than on the terms of the Department and what it is trying to achieve.

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