Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, I thank Members for their thoughtful and detailed contributions to the Second Stage debate on this Bill. I acknowledge the positive reception given to it by many Deputies from all sides of the House. A broad range of points was raised with which I will attempt to deal presently. If necessary, issues can be teased out in more detail with the Minister on Committee Stage.

Based on the contributions of Deputies during the debate, there is a general acceptance that the current system of political funding needs to be reformed. There was an acknowledgment by many speakers, including Deputy Charlie McConalogue and Deputy Brian Stanley, that the Bill is a positive step in the right direction. The range of views expressed by Deputies from all sides of the House reflect the wide scope of the Bill. Points were raised regarding corporate funding of politics, political donations and the gender balance provisions. Several Members raised concerns relating to political reform in a broader and more general sense and points were made about matters that go beyond the immediate scope of this legislation. Overall, the breadth of contributions is a positive reflection on the diversity and ambition of the Bill.

Several Deputies expressed the view that the measures dealing with political funding do not go far enough. This point was made by, among others, Deputies Niall Collins, McConalogue, Seamus Kirk and Dara Calleary of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Stanley and Deputy Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Féin, and Deputies Catherine Murphy, Seamus Healy and Clare Daly. Fianna Fáil Deputies referred to legislation introduced by their party on political and corporate donations which came before the Dáil in May and November 2011. The Government's approach, as set out in our Bill, is more comprehensive and will be more effective.

A number of Deputies called for the introduction of an outright ban on corporate donations. The Minister addressed this issue at the outset of the Second Stage debate and I will respond to some of those points now. Deputy Catherine Murphy observed that such bans operate in other countries, something of which the Government is well aware. In preparing the Bill, we examined some of those models, including those in operation in Belgium, France and Portugal. However, we are legislating in Ireland and must be mindful these other countries have different constitutions from ours. An outright ban on corporate donations raises particular questions with reference to the provisions of Article 40 of the Constitution on freedom of expression and freedom of association. It is the duty of Government to bring forward legislation that is robust and carries with it a level of legal certainty. This is what we are seeking to do in this legislation.

The objective of the Government is to restrict the influence of corporate donations on politics and to enhance the openness and transparency of the whole system of political funding. The Bill will do that to the maximum extent that is possible and constitutionally permissible. The approach being adopted is consistent with our commitments in the programme for Government.

Deputy Alex White specifically asked if corporate donors who register under the new system will be subject to any further restrictions in the amount they can donate. To respond to the Deputy and by way of reassurance, I will say that in addition to the specific registration provisions, corporate donors will also be subject to all of the other donation limits that are to apply generally in the Bill. The theoretical possibility of a group of lobbyists setting themselves up as a corporate entity in order to make donations was also raised by Deputy White. Were this to happen, the legislation will still allow us to know who the individual members of the entity are and what their purpose might be. They will also be restricted in what they can donate. The legislation is comprehensive in this respect.

The Bill will bring about real change and real reform. To quote Deputy Charlie McConalogue, "it will bring about a significant sea-change". Corporate donations will be severely curtailed and the books of political parties will be opened up to public scrutiny. The maximum amount that can be accepted as a political donation will be more than halved. There will be greater openness, with significant reductions in the thresholds for the public declaration of political donations. Other measures in the Bill provide for greater transparency by both donors and those in receipt of political donations.

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and the Government, I agree with my colleagues Deputies Peter Fitzpatrick, Tony McLoughlin and James Bannon who said we need more transparency and accountability. Deputy Paul Connaughton captured the essence of what we are doing when he said corporate donations should be discouraged in favour of individual donations.

Deputy Niall Collins asked if measures to regulate the disclosure of spending at referendum campaigns would be incorporated into the Bill. The Government has announced plans to bring forward separate legislation on this matter. The electoral (amendment) (referendum spending and miscellaneous provisions) Bill is included in the Government's legislative programme published in January 2012. The Minister hopes to bring that Bill before the Dáil later this year. It will provide for the disclosure of expenditure and donations at referendum campaigns and will provide for the extension of the spending limit period that applies at Presidential, Dáil, European Parliament and local elections. The issue of spending that occurs before the commencement of the formal election period was raised by Deputies Clare Daly, Billy Timmins and Jerry Buttimer.

The Bill deals with political donations, the funding of politics and gender representation. The next Bill will deal with the spending side of the equation. The Government is implementing its programme and fulfilling the commitments it gave to the people. Deputy James Bannon made a strong case for the establishment of an electoral commission. The programme for Government contains a commitment to establish such a body.

A number of points have been made about the funding provided to Deputies and Senators and to political parties to support their activities. Deputies Catherine Murphy and Mattie McGrath, in particular, made contributions on this matter. Many of the concerns raised relate to the operation of the party leaders' allowance and to expenses paid to Members of the Oireachtas. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has responsibility for the legislation dealing with the party leaders' allowance. He is currently considering the introduction of reforms to the arrangements that are currently in place and intends to bring proposals to Government on the matter. While issues in regard to the partly leaders' allowance and expenses arrangements are important, they fall outside the scope of the Bill.

However, the Bill deals with issues concerning the payment of funding to qualified political parties under the Electoral Act 1997. A political party that does not submit audited accounts to the Standards in Public Office Commission for publication in line with the new provisions will have its funding withheld. A party which does not comply with the gender balance provisions will lose half of its State funding for the lifetime of the Dáil. In response to a specific question raised by Deputy Catherine Murphy, the Bill does not provide for money withheld from one party to be redistributed to other political parties. Any savings arising would, therefore, accrue to the Exchequer.

The gender balance provisions have generated a good deal of comment. As Deputy Heather Humphreys noted, it has got people talking. On behalf of the Government side, I welcome the constructive manner in which points have been made. It is also acknowledged that some Members are reluctant converts to the approach taken in the Bill. However, as Deputy Mary Lou McDonald said, "we have done the lamenting about the lack of women in public life, we have to do something that has a good chance of working". The contribution of Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor was particularly striking. She said that one can hate quotas but can like their results. Unless we take action, experience has shown that the current gender balance in Irish politics is unlikely to improve to any great extent for a very long time. As Deputies Ciaran Lynch and Bernard Durkan pointed out, women have made a significant contribution to the work of this House. We want to see that strengthened and enhanced. Those who are sceptical should do as Deputy Sandra McLellan advised in her contribution, namely, they should look at the evidence. Equivalent measures in other countries have worked.

Many Deputies, including some in my party, would like to see the Bill going further than it does. When the Minister introduced the Bill, he reflected on the fact that the legislation before us is a significant step. I reiterate this view. The Bill represents a seismic shift in our approach to gender equality. The Minister also outlined how the gender balance provisions are to apply and why the provisions are structured as they are. They are designed to be ambitious, effective, fair and legally robust.

The measures in the Bill link the payments made to qualified political parties by the State under the Electoral Act 1997 to candidate selection at a general election. Payments are made under that Act to parties that contest general elections, based on their performance at those elections. There is no linkage between these payments and local elections or elections to the European Parliament or the Seanad. We are, therefore, not in a position to apply a similar measure to candidate selection at other elections as has been suggested by many speakers, including Deputies from Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, the Independent benches and by some Members on this side of the House.

In framing the Bill, a key reference point was the 2009 report by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights entitled, Women's Participation in Politics. To recap, it recommended the introduction of measures to achieve a minimum representation of one third women and men. The committee recommended linking candidate selection with financial sanctions through the withholding of State funding, which we are doing. We must lead but in doing so, we must bring people with us. The objectives of the Bill are ambitious in theory and attainable in practice.

It is evident that there are people of different political persuasions who do not agree with what is in the Bill. Deputy Healy-Rae asked if the Government had "scenario tested" the Bill. I reassure the Deputy that the Government has fully considered the policy implications of this legislation.

During the debate, the question of whether the gender balance measures in the Bill are constitutional was raised by Deputy Joanna Tuffy. The Minister addressed this matter directly in his opening remarks on Second Stage, and I will do so again. We believe that the measures in this Bill are legally and constitutionally sound. We are providing an opportunity for women to stand before the electorate. The ultimate choice about the balance of representation in the Dáil will be made by voters.

As Deputy Regina Doherty said, gender balance measures are not intended to discriminate but to compensate for the barriers facing women. The funding provided to political parties under the 1997 Act is given by the Oireachtas under legislation and it is open to the Oireachtas to make the funding subject to conditions. To be very clear, if we did not believe the Bill would withstand legal challenge, we would not have brought it forward.

Deputies referred during the debate to the current and past failings in the system of political funding in the State. On behalf of the Government, I reassure Deputies that the measures in the Bill are comprehensive and far reaching. In developing the Bill, the Government had particular regard to the recommendations made in the Moriarty tribunal's report, published in March 2011. While the tribunal report did not actually recommend that corporate donations be banned, it did note that the desirability and feasibility of a complete ban on private political funding is pre-eminently a matter for the Oireachtas and for public debate and consideration, having regard to the constitutional issues that might arise and the national financial exigencies. It is our view, therefore, that the restrictions to be placed on corporate donors in the Bill will go beyond what the tribunal was in a position to recommend. The provision in the Bill for the publication of political party accounts will address the Moriarty tribunal's recommendation that all income of political parties be disclosed. The Bill will go beyond this recommendation by providing that the expenditure of parties will also be reported and open to public scrutiny. The tribunal recommended that all political donations, apart from those under a modest threshold, be disclosed. The reductions in the donations thresholds we are introducing are substantial and significant and address this recommendation.

The final report of the Mahon tribunal was published on 22 March, on which day the Bill was being debated in this House. As my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, said at the time, there are significant lessons to be learned about the relationship between politics and business. The tribunal's report is a substantial document, both in size and the breadth of issues examined. It is worth noting that some of the recommendations on political finance are being acted upon in the Bill, specifically with regard to the reduction in political donation amounts and the publication of political party accounts.

It is right that the work of the tribunal should inform the debate on the Bill. Some speakers, including Deputies Kyne, Anne Ferris, Conway and Corcoran Kennedy, referred to the failings in the system of political funding that had been exposed in the report. On behalf of the Government, I must say I do not agree with the proposition made by Deputy Seamus Healy that we should set the Bill aside and start again from scratch. A full examination and analysis of the report's conclusions is being undertaken in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. As part of this analysis, the recommendations made on electoral matters are being examined.

As experience with the Moriarty tribunal has shown, the Government is both willing and able to respond to recommendations by change. The Bill implements major reforms in the regulation of political funding. As I noted, the Government plans to bring forward further reforming electoral legislation later in 2012 dealing with referendum and election spending and other related matters. There will be ample opportunity to consider the Mahon tribunal recommendations again in these Houses and, where necessary, to legislate for further change.

On behalf of the Government, I thank Deputies for their comments and observations on this important ground-breaking Bill. The Government looks forward to further consideration on Committee Stage of the specific provisions in the legislation. It also looks forward to hearing Deputies elaborate further on some of the ideas and proposals they mentioned in their contributions. Deputy Niall Collins, in his contribution, said political parties are no different from any other organisations in the country in the sense that they all require money to be run properly. A similar point was made by his colleague, Deputy Seamus Kirk. We on the Government side agree. It is worth recalling that the public funding provided to political parties cannot be used to fight election campaigns. In these circumstances, there is a need to ensure the regulation of political fund-raising is strict, fair and transparent. That is what we are achieving through this Bill.

While money is needed to run politics, politics should not be run by money. Many speakers, including Deputies Timmins, Buttimer, Finian McGrath, Neville and Áine Collins, made a similar point. We cannot expect a political system that commands the highest respect from the people unless there is greater transparency associated with how it is funded and unless we have a gender balance among elected politicians that is more reflective of the population. On both counts, the current system is not fully working and needs to be changed. Deputies Keaveney, Donnelly, Feighan, Tom Hayes and Ó Ríordáin made strong points on the need to combat cynicism and rebuild trust among the public in politics and politicians. This Bill will reform the way politics is conducted in Ireland. We are drawing a clear line between corporate funding and political activity. Even if one does not agree with what is in the Bill, I hope one will agree it is radical and far reaching. I ask that the House approve it in order that we can proceed towards its enactment and implementation.

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