Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)

Go raibh maith agat. I too welcome the opportunity to contribute to the Second Stage debate on the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Bill 2011. While I welcome the proposed amalgamation, we must ensure we protect what we have. We must not be afraid to amalgamate but must be careful how we move forward.

On 27 July 2011, the chief executive designate of the QQAI, Dr. Padraig Walsh, in a statement welcoming the publication of the Bill stated that this legislation will provide a more integrated, efficient and coherent range of services to learners across the further and higher education and training sectors to the highest international standards, which is a noble and worthy declaration in terms of where we want to go and should and must be. FETAC, HETAC, NQAI and IUQB are all agreed that this move strengthens a focus on high quality learning experiences across all educational and training provisions nationally. The strength of existing quality assurance systems will grow, opening up new opportunities for people to engage and succeed in learning. That should be our mission statement. It is what we want to achieve. We need to open up new opportunities, in particular educational opportunities which lead to employment.

While the NUI agrees that a single agency may lead to efficiencies over time it believes there is a risk in amalgamating a higher education awards body with further education awarding bodies. It believes this may lead to reputational damage to the awards in the higher education arena. It is important we keep a watchful eye on this to ensure no such damage occurs. The NUI argues that most member agencies in the European Association for Higher Education and Quality Assurance are concerned solely with higher education. We must acknowledge the NUI's concerns. Higher education awards are internationally recognised and we must ensure they are not damaged in any shape or form. However, this declaration may not be the be all and end all: we should perhaps examine this further.

There is a need for a change of emphasis in our universities. Previous speakers on the Opposition side referred to the conveyor belt system, namely, taking in as many students as possible, training them up and getting them out, which is a cause for concern. This type of system has diminished the role of our universities. Members will be aware that our universities have slipped in the rankings in previous years. While we must protect the uniqueness of our universities we must be cognisant of the message we are getting - which we did not get today or yesterday - from international direct investment companies in Ireland. Four years ago I and up to 80 other politicians attended a talk given by an man from an important high technology company in Galway at which we were told that we needed to act fast to reverse the trend in the area of science and physics. While previously our students of science and physics had been highly regarded and respected they were no longer achieving high standards in this area. The man concerned had and continues to have linkages with Galway university.

On the invitation of the American ambassador, I and a number of my colleagues, visited his residence some months ago and took place in a round table discussion with senior business people who told us they are hugely concerned about the standard of achievement in mathematics, physics and science. They told us that despite all the work being done by the IDA, Enterprise Ireland, the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Trade and Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation to attract foreign companies here and the huge costs involved in this regard they are bringing their own graduates in physics and science with them to fill specific positions, which is a damning indictment of our university system. These companies are availing of our low corporation tax and so on but they are not employing Irish people. The problem is not that they do not want to employ Irish people but that we do not have suitably qualified people for the job. We must be cognisant of this and deal with it.

I am concerned about the slippage of our universities in this regard. Have the Department of Education and Skills, the CEOs in our universities and the senior people in charge taken their eye off the ball? Are they simply trying to educate the multitude - I accept everyone has an equal right to education - or have they become lethargic and lazy? It is one thing to be told by the OECD that our universities have slipped in the international rankings but it is another to be told this by international investors. I note my colleague, Deputy Tom Hayes, is in the House. We have also been told this by companies in south Tipperary, although not that bluntly. This problem needs to be addressed. We all know that it is necessary for companies to bring particular people with them but that they are having to bring in their own employees because we do not have suitably qualified people is madness.

I am concerned about the number of people the Minister proposes to appoint to the new board as this leaves no room for outside expertise. The Minister proposes to appoint eight members. Surely the bodies being amalgamated should be given some recognition. I do not know from where the appointees will be drawn but I am sure they will be of sufficient expertise. However, the Minister should allow for the appointment of 12 members so as to provide for outside representation, perhaps from companies investing and wishing to invest here.

They have many stark messages and experiences from their own countries of the kind of people who are being educated there rather than here.

For private companies operating in this area there should be something such as a bond. It is unbelievable that one can pay fees to private companies which then close down. It is tough enough at present for families to survive and anybody who trades in that way should be solvent, should not trade recklessly or take in fees for a season and close shortly afterwards. There must be a bond or some other way in which people can get back their money. It is not only about money but about the trauma and distress caused to students and families.

Overall, we must ensure that our education system and our universities are fit for purpose. We must get back into that league table because that is where we should be. We must be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with any of our partners in Europe and attract international students, for a number of reasons. Obviously, it is a big boost to the economy to have a student come to this country. It is ludicrous that seven students from different countries have not been allowed to come to this country. The only way they can do so is through Northern Ireland, which is ridiculous. We have the capacity and we should have the proper tool which would attract students. We had it before and must go back to it and ensure that students come to this country. We must have courses that are internationally recognised for students when they return to their own countries. They will be able to talk about the wonderful education they received, the wonderful system they experienced and the nice place they were in, Ireland of the thousand welcomes.

Most important, however, is the standard of education. We have to be able to convince the OECD we are fighting back. Some 8% of school goers are in trouble and this starts in primary school. We can blame the big classes and many other elements but there are many inadequacies in the system. Everybody must be protected but I do not want to see colleagues refer to the different levels of posts. I do not want to see a big row about people maintaining their positions, the chief executive officers and the deputy CEOs. We have had too much of that in this country. There has been too much enhancement of CEOs and senior people who create little dynasties for themselves. We must think what we are about, namely, educating our people and being internationally recognised, not having little empires and kingdoms built. People want different grades and then want to have the same grade when they go elsewhere. We have too much of that and it has gone on for far too long. It has left us nowhere and only brings bitterness, with people not pulling together or working together as they should and for the sake of the country.

I wish the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, well in his endeavours. It is time this was dealt with properly. I do not say we must not recognise people's rights and levels because we must do so but heads must be banged together. We need to have a system that is fit for purpose and for what it is designed to do, that does what it says on the tin and is internationally recognised.

We need to move on this and I wish the Minister for Education and Skills well. He needs to do a root and branch review of education standards in all schools. I may be straying a little from the mark but I refer to the attack on DEIS schools, especially small rural schools. The best people, the best business people, and the best internationally recognised people have come from small local schools. Everybody in the Chamber knows that as well as I do. It is not because they are in the metropolis or a big town that everything is good. The best products and the most driven achievers have come from small schools. The present attack on these schools must be withdrawn. It is not right, fair or proper. It is the weakest section because it does not have the clout but it must be protected. Those schools have served the country well for generations and decades and will serve it well for generations and decades to come. They allow weaker 11 year olds or people with lesser abilities to compete fairly and go on to second and third level and achieve, or to go into business after second level, or whatever. They cannot be mushroomed and attacked as is happening to them.

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