Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)

I am speaking to the Credit Guarantee Bill. Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. This is all relevant to the money we do not have. We are passing the Bill, and I welcome it, but I do not want to see it hijacked by the banks. They have hijacked everything else. That is why what I am saying is relevant. Instead of the €6 billion the two pillar banks are supposed to provide annually, they are not putting in even €1 billion between them. I cannot prove that but I know from the evidence I gather from meetings in my clinics, in my social life and in my discussions with farm organisations and agricultural contractors that it is not happening. People are not going into banks because when they ring up about loans they are told to just forget it. Many people who go into banks do not get past the counter. The banks are manipulating the figures to say they have lent to so many people. Less than 40% of those who make inquiries about loans in banks get to meet the manager and discuss their business plan. The majority of those who want loans are rejected. The figure we get is not accurate.

I am pleased with the safeguards included in the Bill. I worry about who will be the contractor. One could ask why the apparatus of the State is no longer able to do such things. Is it the case that we will have to resort to a consulting company again or will we have to put it out to tender? What is wrong with us at county council level and elsewhere that we cannot do anything ourselves any longer but we have to seek outside help? I do not say outside help is bad but consultants are consuming too much energy, time and money in the State. The money must be put where it is needed, namely, to put small businesses back on the road.

I welcome the reference to qualifying enterprises. I know who they are. Anyone with any nous for business knows who they are. It is important that the fund is not hijacked and that it is guaranteed. I worry about the 2% surcharge. I accept there are no free lunches but small businesses need a clean start. In the first instance, indigenous businesses need the money to get going. They could perhaps be charged at a later date. I do not say live horse and you will get grass but small businesses are downtrodden and on their knees at the moment. They are bursting with ideas and energy but they just cannot get beyond the red tape. They cannot get loans to get up and going. We must devise a way to allow them to put their worries about paying the banks to one side and let them act as job creators and innovators which they can be and will be. The longer that is going on, the more they are being downtrodden. That is a problem. Small businesses are losing the will to carry on and they are throwing in the towel. If they do that they do not get a shilling in social welfare. I accept the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, is examining the issue. We must reward those people, encourage them and above all we must allow them to stimulate the economy and get us back on the road to recovery. We must do that at all costs.

A total of €20 billion is available in an investment bank. Deputy Mathews referred to that also. The sum of €2 billion would probably be enough given that the money would trickle down. The bank would attract deposits according as people saw it as an attractive business venture. There is money out there. People have it in all kinds of places. I would not like to see anything happen similar to what happened in Greece this week, namely, a run on our money. There is money out there and people will invest in a proper investment tool to make reasonable and modest profits. A smaller sum such as €2 billion would stimulate much activity. The money should be lent to the agriculture and commercial sector but not for property. We got badly burned with property. I know people from my class at school who are my age who were led astray. They did not have expertise but they were doing well and had a good job. Not only do they have one house but they have 20. It is a pity because a small bit of greed was involved. One has to put one's hand on one's heart and ask what they need them for. I have eight children, thank God, and we have only one house. We could not afford to buy a second house and we did not want one anyway. My daughter has built a house now and my son is in the process of buying a house. That is the way it always was. We did our best to grow.

Anyone with experience of business is aware that we all get knocks. Anyone who is in business for 30 years knows that we have had a number of recessions and we came out of them but this one is severe because of the bad banks. There is no point in codding ourselves in this House, year in and year out. We just have to deal with the issue and not have the bondholders laughing at us. They are laughing all the way to the bank because they are not affected. I am afraid that there could be trouble on the streets because people cannot take it, will not take it and should not be asked to take it. We should change our ways.

Deputies on all sides hear about what is happening. Deputy Mathews knows about banks. I had discussions with him about what we can do and what the ICC Bank did. The Minister of State is aware of that as well. We could do that again. The policy of the two pillar banks is flawed. They have had long enough since we voted on that night in September in 2008 but we have not seen any return for our vote. If I had a chance again I would vote the opposite way. Time is a great educator. It is easy to be wise after the event. The pillar banks are not fit for purpose. They are not doing the work they are supposed to do. I welcome the inclusion of the review process in the Bill and the guidelines on the type of lending, which I hope is confined to agriculture, small industry and commercial business.

I got a taxi this morning to the House from TV3. It was a 2004 vehicle and the driver was 25 years in the business. His vehicle is at the end of its life but it is going perfectly. Vehicles have to undergo all kinds of tests nowadays - rightly so. The taxi driver no longer has enthusiasm for the business. He is afraid. He has to work six and a half days a week and longer days to try to make ends meet. He does not know whether he can replace his car. He knows that if he goes to the bank for a loan he will probably be told at the front door or the counter not even to come in. That is what the banks are doing. In my county at the moment the banks are advertising on radio and in the newspapers that they are open for business. I hope they are. However, I will believe it when I see it and when I meet the people after mass, at social events or matches. There is no place we can hide from them, unless we want to hide. We cannot hide from them because there are so many people who cannot obtain finances. I refer to people of good standing who are not fly-by-nights. They were never people who did not repay what they owed, but now they are stifled. What is worse is that in recent years they have used up their pension reserves. Some of them are in their 60s now and they are really at the end of the road. This time next year they will not have any recourse. The footfall is not there and people are not spending.

I do not agree with much of what those on the left advocate. I could call them comrades. I suppose they would like to call me comrade. However, I can see that austerity is dragging people down. It is dragging us all down. It is too much. We cannot have austerity without stimulus. I hope the Taoiseach will inform us when he comes back from Brussels next week that he asked Mrs. Merkel whether she wants the same thing to happen in Ireland as happened in Greece, France and other countries. I refer to contagion among the electorate. People are sick of austerity and cannot cope with it. It is being said that people who want to vote "Yes" in the referendum on the treaty do not have the heart to go to the polling station. They voted "Yes" so many times and they voted Governments in and out but they do not have the heart or the energy anymore. They have just thrown in the towel. I am confident the Minister of State will take those views back to Government. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his forbearance.

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