Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

I welcome the positive attitude of the Minister of State to the Bill and the recognition there is a problem to be solved. This issue shows the ingenuity of people in creating niches for themselves but there is now an urgent need to regulate the sector.

As a former Minister for Social Protection, I acknowledge the fantastic work done by MABS. MABS was doing this work for years, long before there was a debt crisis. Its workload, however, has increased hugely since the downturn. Whereas a lot of the debate centres on mortgage debt, if people only had a mortgage debt problem, it would be black and white and would not be difficult to resolve. The reality is, however, that most people have every kind of debt when they are in trouble. When they start to run into trouble with the mortgage, they start to hold back on utility bills and other bills. They put off taxing the car for a month or two and, in most cases, there is a raft of other loans, some taken out to repay other loans and some to buy goods. There are credit card debts and myriad other borrowings. In many cases, if all the loans were stacked up together and the mortgage provider took them on, a sustainable repayment pattern might be possible.

One thing I notice when talking to people with financial difficulties is that it is often illuminating to write down a list of all the people owed money, the capital amount outstanding and the weekly or monthly repayment. Sometimes, huge repayments on quite small loans are the cause of the problems. It is important, therefore, we assist people to resolve these issues. MABS, because it works through this with people, has done incredible work.

Most people's reaction to debt is to act like a hedgehog. We all have a tendency to curl up into a ball, put up the spikes and hope the problem will go away. We know what happens to the hedgehog when a car comes; it simply drives over the spikes. People who are not sleeping at night because of debts often feel better if someone simply goes through the figures with them and explains that there are protections in law for them. What happens in law if they do not repay an unsecured creditor? It is not the end of the world. A person cannot be ordered by a court to pay what he does not have. Even if we could get people to that phase of interaction with someone reputable, it would be huge step forward in rationalising the problem and would prevent hopelessness and even suicide. Much of it is due to fear because they never rationalised the worst case scenario. Such a scenario dealt with in a rational way is a lot better than the more horrendous ideas they are contemplating. Collectively we have a huge job to encourage people to talk to someone about debt.

MABS has done a great job. When I would ask the service about average debt levels, many of those it was dealing with had relatively small amounts of debt, with the average being around €30,000. Many people imagine those going to MABS have debts of €150,000, but many of those using the service did not have huge debts in an absolute sense but had impossible repayments. There is a major difference between the total amount of the debt and the repayment.

It is fair to say that with the problem being so widespread, there will be people who do this professionally. In some cases, those who were giving out the money as brokers have turned around and are advising how to repay the money. Many of us would be aware of people coming in to talk about debts but only telling half the story. One of our human attributes must be to get them to tell us everything, to give us all the information and for them not to be afraid we will be shocked about what they say. They must be convinced that many people are in the same boat, no one will look down on them for getting into financial problems and there are people who want to help them. There is a job to be done and there is a role to be played by those who do this professionally, but this is an area that requires professionalism and needs people who are properly qualified to do the job and who understand the legal avenues and processes involved. These people must understand the human dynamics of this and be qualified to do the job.

We are talking about people's money so the industry must be regulated, which is what this Bill sets out to do. It also sets out to ensure that the highest of standards are maintained, that one cannot go into the job unless one is capable of doing it and that there are some objective standards laid out in law in respect of what is required to take up work in the profession. There are few professions one can take up nowadays without having some qualifications or proof of one's capability to do the job. We need clear standards laid down to do the job. There must be supervision of these standards to ensure those involved continue to adhere to the highest of standards. That is both important and urgent.

In his speech the Minister of State referred to advisers handling people's money rather than simply making arrangements. There is a case to be made for an adviser not handling money or, if they do so, at least there should be a bonded system with client accounts and so on. In the past, there have been incidents in various professions. Temptation is a terrible thing for the human. We know what has occurred in certain cases when certain people got their hands on other people's money. Certain people might have had their own troubles and then misused other people's money in a professional capacity. If we take the view that other people's money can be handled we should be careful and include considerable safeguards, including bonding, to ensure that people's money is secure.

My colleague, Deputy McGrath, has done a good service to the country by bringing forward the Bill and the Minister of State has recognised this. This matter must be dealt with urgently. I realise there are delays in the system. The Minister of State is becoming more aware of them. When one is on this side of the House it is easy to take the view that the legislation should pop out fast. I have often said that one can get 90% of the way quite fast. One can do it in approximately six months. The final 10%, however, can take several years because of going over and back to the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Attorney General since many questions arise at that stage. We must also accept the need to do things well but we should not allow the desire to cover every angle that could arise in the next 20 years to hold back urgent legislation into the distant future. It is not a case of including anything that is wrong but perhaps we will not cover every subject first time around. The process should involve the inclusion of the essentials quickly. We should see it as a child sees a Lego set. We can keep adding to it as long as whatever we have done is sound. However, we should not allow the add-ons to delay the legislation interminably.

I realise and accept that it is difficult to prepare legislation on this side of the House that will pass the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. The office will always have queries and questions and I accept the good faith of the Government in this regard. It is an inevitable part of the system that those responsible will go through the legislation and point out what they deem to be flaws in the way it is drawn up. That is fair enough. Anyway, it is important that we see this as something we can do for people and to protect people. People are in enough trouble without being charged vast fees for bad advice and without their fears being further exploited by unscrupulous people.

I suggest to those working in the industry in a private capacity and who are doing a good job that this legislation is equally important for them. They need to be able to put it to their clients that they are accredited, approved, that they have the necessary qualifications, that they are supervised and, therefore, that the client can trust that what the adviser is suggesting can be achieved and that the adviser is qualified and capable of realising it. I have no doubt that the legitimate people in this business will welcome the speedy enactment of legislation to protect them.

Molaim an Bille seo. Bille thar a bheith tábhachtach atá ann. Tá tábhacht faoi leith ag baint leis do dhaoine atá ag fulaingt go mór i measc an phobail agus tá súil agam nach fada go bhfeicfimid na leasuithe a luaigh an tAire ag teacht faoi bhráid an Oireachtais.

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