Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)

In her contributions, the Minister suggests there should be an engagement and that the entitlement would be gained after engagement. I do not know anybody in mortgage distress, on reduced working hours or unemployed, who would not willingly engage with his or her lender. The problem, as the briefing note suggests, is that for somebody to qualify for mortgage interest supplement there must be more than an engagement. That is the key point. One can engage all one likes with a bank but if the bank is not willing to enter into an arrangement, currently there is no requirement or obligation on the institutions to enter into one, or even to offer an alternative arrangement. If they refuse, they can write a little note and somebody will look at it and say, "You are bad boys," and so be it.

The Minister has presented this onus as a good thing. Here are the Minister and the Department forcing the banks, the lenders, to engage. Nobody denies the right of the Minister and the Department to force banks - given that we own most of them at this stage - to deliver for the people whose present distress, in many cases, they have caused. If there was an amendment in front of us stating that banks had to enter into, or were obliged to come up with an arrangement, then there would be something we could properly consider.

Another point is that arrears will continue to develop for 12 months before there must be engagement and compliance with a repayment arrangement. The latter comes afterwards. If one goes to the bank in the morning, the manager will not say, "There you are, you're all sorted, there's the arrangement". Anybody I know has had a number of months engagement with the bank prior to successfully coming up with an arrangement. The time in question does not involve only the 12 months but the period before, when the arrears are mounting. In some cases, people are 18 months in distress before they can get access to a mortgage interest supplement. This is restrictive and that is where the problem lies. If one could get mortgage interest supplement at an earlier stage it might deal with the problem. The Government has promised to deal with mortgages. This system is similar to the way the rent allowance scheme originally was, namely, a short-term solution to try to help to alleviate a problem until such time as a person found work or some other arrangement. That does not happen. That deals with the mortgage interest supplement.

Regarding the section dealing with jobseeker's benefit, if we have a proper debate on Second, Committee and Report Stage, with gaps between the Stages, I would have tabled parliamentary questions to find out the number of people affected and whether the people who will lose out are able to claim the family income supplement. The 30 hour rule means they qualify for the family income supplement because they are still working.

The Bill deals with commencement orders and my argument is that we should delay commencement of any of these sections without full knowledge. We have not looked at them properly. The Minister referred to the FLAC conference. People attended on my behalf because I was not able to attend. FLAC does laudable work and it has made presentations to my party on this Bill at short notice. The Minister acknowledged the insight of FLAC into people dealing with debt as invaluable but she is not listening to their recommendations, one of which is: "That no proposals to further limit Mortgage Interest Supplement be enacted, at least until an overall package of supports is available to ensure the protection of borrowers who have the capacity to remain in their homes with appropriate targeted support." FLAC is saying not to proceed with this because the Minister's proposal is limiting it. FLAC also suggests: "Recommendations to remove inappropriate restrictions on Mortgage Interest Supplement should be implemented immediately." and "Mortgage Interest Supplement should be targeted at people with sustainable mortgages who can potentially meet their mortgage interest payments with some assistance." The Minister should not proceed because the overall package of support is not available.

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