Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)

I commend the members of the Flood and Mahon tribunal, who took much stick over a long period. We all questioned the length and the cost but, irrespective of the length of time and its cost, it would always be subject to a certain amount of criticism. Short of bringing out the wrongdoers and decapitating them, there would never be satisfaction from the public at large. Although I welcome the report, I also find it depressing for a number of reasons. The first is that there is so much bad in it and so much bad was done by so many individuals. A blind eye was turned by many other individuals. It also depressing because many of the individuals who did so much bad also did some good. The main focus in recent times has been the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, whose evidence I do not believe. However, I acknowledge that he did some good during his time and it is important to acknowledge that, notwithstanding the fact that it does not exonerate him from the wrongdoing.

It is also depressing to listen to Sinn Féin lecturing Fianna Fáil. If I was to make a chart of the complaints about Sinn Féin I have come across, relative to Fianna Fáil over a 30 year period, I have no doubt that Sinn Féin would be the loser. It is a dishonest party that has murdered, maimed and manipulated. It has failed to acknowledge this although perhaps it is trying to go down a new path now. I have never heard members of Sinn Féin say they were sorry and I have never heard them tell the truth about what they were involved in. The Northern Bank robbery and the McCabe murder go to the back of the minds of most Irish people as they move on and forget. Sinn Féin vehemently denied both of those events although I am not sure if they still deny them. The fault I find with Sinn Féin, which is growing politically, is that the party is where Fianna Fáil was in the 1920s and 1930s. It puts the party before the State. Some Fianna Fáil members will take offence at this. That came home to roost in terms of some members of Fianna Fáil culminating in thelikes of this report but Sinn Féin doesnot have an interest in putting the State first. The advancement of the party is more important. I include some of the left wing Independents in that. I will not get a chance to speak about the household tax but it is important to state that if a Member of this Oireachtas who believes in the democratic process and accepts democracy and who was elected by the people to this House does not accept the democratic view of the House and refuses to pay the household charge, that is corruption in another form.

Where there are people, power and money, there will always be the potential for corruption. My colleague, the Minister of State, said we must make sure nothing like this every happens again but as sure as night follows day, this will happen again. Since Eve took the bite of the apple we have had corruption of sorts. We can blame the snake on that occasion but, ultimately, society has a weakness in that regard. We all have weaknesses as individuals and notwithstanding that I had a go at Sinn Féin, I do not like to be too judgmental on that because one never knows what forces an individual man or woman to do this but those in office in particular who have engaged in wrong-doing and involved themselves in corruption should be followed to the ends of the earth and made repay. We must ensure we have structures in place that will limit cases of corruption or that it will be discovered if it does occur.

Like most people I speed read most of the recommendations in the report and corruption and bribery appears to be very difficult to prove but we must move in that regard. I would abolish the Standards in Public Office Commission. I do not know what great purpose it achieves but whatever limited purpose it achieves could be incorporated into a new public interest office. We do not need a corruption office or a planning regulator, but a public interest office. I was never one to act on anonymous information but the tribunal recommends it and due to the climate of fear, the fear of authority and the uncertainty that exists, and a fear in terms of confidentiality, we should set up such a public interest office which should have a section dealing with anonymous information.

I hear the term that the dogs on the street knew about this corruption. I was not in politics in the early 1990s. I came into it in 1997 but no dog on the street ever came up to me and told me about corruption. One would often hear it in the ether, as one hears many things, but I am not inclined to believe what I hear in the ether. I do not necessarily believe in the adage that there is no smoke without fire. I do not believe that all people are corrupt. The majority of people, be they in Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour or whatever party, are decent, honourable people who are doing the best they can. Every party has the potential for corruption and wrongdoing, including Fine Gael. However, this report has shown that in Fianna Fáil, perhaps because it was in power the longest, there was bad practice, activities that were not in the public interest and corruption carried out at the highest level in the party. There was also complacency, as mentioned by an earlier speaker, or a blind eye turned to the difficulties. I was surprised to read about the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, and the Flynn money. One would never associate the former Taoiseach with those deeds, yet he was informed of the Flynn donation and it appears he did nothing about it and appointed him subsequently as a Minister and a Commissioner.

That goes back to the concept of loyalty and the misconceived perception those of us in politics have about loyalty to the party and to the party leader. One must be loyal first to oneself and to the people one represents. People who speak about loyalty often are the people in control, not the general body. Loyalty and the misplaced concept of loyalty has given rise to many difficulties in Irish politics over the years.

One of the weaknesses in our system is that the Executive, irrespective of whether Labour, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil or whatever party is in power, holds all the power and it is very difficult to hold the Executive to account. The only way we can go some way in holding it to account is to have a committee system that can be independent of the Executive. That is an issue we have discussed in the past but we have done nothing about it. It has not happened in my time here nor has it happened to date during our Government's time in office.

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