Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for putting forward this Bill which gives us an opportunity to speak on an issue of serious concern across the country. It is an honest attempt to address problems that have emerged with the trade in scrap and precious metals. It would be nice for this side of the House to have the whole apparatus of the State, including the Chief State Solicitor's office, available to us to do research but that is not possible. It is important the Minister recognises this as Deputy Mattie McGrath has admitted, this Bill is not the finished product. Deputy Mattie McGrath is open to suggestions and amendments.

On the previous occasion when I was elected to Dáil Éireann, in 2005 to 2006 the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Michael McDowell, introduced a criminal justice Bill that was the bare bones. An endless number of amendments was tabled by the Minister himself, which were approximately three times the size of the Bill as published. It is not without precedent for a Bill to be substantially amended, in particular in the justice area. I accept many of the points made by the Minister on some of the areas that need to be addressed in the Bill.

There is no doubt a serious problem exists. I wish to refer to a few issues relating to the scrap area. Only last week children were denied some of the play facilities in a playground in Dundalk when metal was taken. All local authorities are concerned about the theft of monuments around the country. They are considering security. We regularly hear about monuments being stolen on the news at 6 p.m. Recently, a monument to a family killed in a fire tragedy in a particular area was stolen. While the metal itself might not have been valuable, it was valuable to the relatives of those killed in the tragedy because it marked the terrible event that changed forever the lives of those who survived the fire.

I am a member of a joint policing committee in Kildare. The Garda has told us that the burglaries taking place are targeting jewellery. That is happening because there is a way of laundering it. Anyone who has had their house broken into - reference has already been made to it - is aware that it is one of the most traumatic events. It takes a long time for people to regain confidence in their homes, if ever. This is a serious issue if cash-for-gold shops are being used to, in effect, launder jewellery that in most cases is of greater sentimental value than the metal itself to those who own it.

There is an unfinished estate in my area with approximately a dozen houses that were unsold, as the developer did not have the money to do the final fit-out. They were gutted of anything of value, including metals, doors, patio doors and flashing. Those houses may have to be demolished. It has been a source of concern to the people living in the estate because of associated gang-related activity since the houses were gutted. There is a lack of funding for the provision of security on the part of those who have not been able to complete the estate for whatever reason. What is happening opens up the prospect of that becoming an even greater problem.

Another item which has been taken, which might seem like a fairly minor one until one loses a child down one, is manhole covers over drains and sewers. When that happened people were rightly concerned about the dangers posed. Although it is not connected with scrap metal, in the past week a tragic event occurred where a child lost his life, but it is predictable that this could happen.

In the 19th century an entire detective division of, for example, the Dublin Metropolitan Police, which tends to be considered as the G division for all sorts of other reasons, had sole responsibility for the regulation of pawnbrokers, who were made liable to prosecution if they received stolen goods. That did keep the problem under control. It is clear that we go through cycles when such products are valuable. The Minister is correct; the issue relates to items that are tangible and currently valuable. Metals are being laundered and money is being received in return for them.

I do not know how it could be dealt with but currently UK companies have become involved in buying gold. One sends the gold in an envelope to the UK. It is difficult to regulate when the gold goes outside the jurisdiction. It would not be done if there was not a value on the metals in question. The cost of security is a big issue, not least for local authorities in terms of monuments that are dotted around the country that have been paid for out of public funds.

Committee Stage provides an opportunity to radically amend Bills, if need be. I accept the point about legitimate business and the antiques trade. Nobody is greatly concerned about a business that has been a valuable one, if one will pardon the pun, when it is a legitimate trade. The point has been made that where there is an honest outlet, it is being impacted upon by virtue of the fact that others are being less than rigorous in terms of the origin of some of the material received and those who consistently supply it. There is a need for speedy action in terms of responding to this serious problem. It will become a greater problem if systems are not put in place as a matter of urgency to prevent it from happening.

In his response the Minister referred to a plan for focusing on prevention. What prevention can one have on an unsecured construction site? What security can one implement to prevent people taking away manhole covers? There must be something beyond that approach. It may well not be within the scope of the Department of Justice and Equality as the Bill relates to both scrap metal and precious metals. A problem already exists. We cannot wait forever for a solution or the introduction of penalties that might curb some of the activities currently taking place.

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