Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)

When I contributed on this issue in the past, I used the term "misaligned interests in banking". That is what got us into this difficulty. People were intrinsically motivated by greed and all that mattered was their bonus and their turnover, not whether they were operating for the common good. The function of banks is to assist the economy and to assist in the creation of a better society. They are not there to create profit for themselves or their shareholders. That is what we need to examine.

We can think of all the errors of the past. My main concern, on the basis of confidential information I have received from a trader in Dublin, is that there is an increasing concern that Anglo Irish Bank and AIB, in particular, may be selling off loans books for lower prices than they should be getting. I would like the Minister for Finance to carry out an investigation into whether an incentive scheme is still in place for traders, particularly in those two banks, to sell off their loan books. My understanding is the motivation is to sell them off and they are not obtaining value for money. Some of the organisations and banks buying the loans books have buyers lined up and they sell them on at a higher price the next day.

I would like to see a comparison of the sale of loan books between Bank of Ireland and the Anglo Irish Bank-AIB. My understanding is Bank of Ireland is undertaking this process in the correct manner and it is achieving value for money. When one is making a subjective argument, it is difficult to prove. It behoves the Minister to come into the House in the new year to outline the sale of loan books by Anglo Irish Bank and AIB and what percentage they are achieving and to give us a comparison with what Bank of Ireland has done. I do not know whether the Financial Regulator can track the resale of the loan books. It may be difficult to do so. This is a subjective argument and there will be a counterargument. It is difficult to prove this without empirical evidence. Our country is being ravaged by wolves that are treating us like a carcass. It is happening in front of our eyes and the banks are so happy to move these loan books on that we do not realise what is happening.

The same concern applies to NAMA. I spoke to a trader I know in the US and he referred to a common refrain he hears, which is "Let's move to Ireland. There's a killing to be had there". Is there any way to analyse the sale of NAMA properties? Is value for money being achieved? I am not sure and my concern is the motivation is also to move the properties on and value for money is not being achieved. There is evidence that this is the case.

This comes down to the concept of a risks agency. Do we need to consider the establishment through the Financial Regulator of an agency that will examine the conduct of sales of loans books in our banks to ascertain whether they are being conducted in the correct manner? We do not have the expertise or knowledge and we may even not have access to the information, ultimately, to establish whether we are getting value for money. However, my clear understanding, on the basis of information I received confidentially, is that bank loan books are being undersold. Can it be established whether that is the case? If so, what system is in place in Anglo Irish Bank and AIB for the sale of loan books? Is a bonus, commission or merit system still in place for staff who move the loan books on? I cannot overemphasise the importance of this issue. If so, what does it entail? If not, is there a system in place to prove we are getting value for money from the sale of loan books? My information is no mechanism is in place and the motivation is to move the loan books on. That is really important. If I were to make only one point today, it would be that we must ensure the country is not being ravaged by ourselves internally. The motivation is to move loan books on. We are not getting value for money. Have we a mechanism to determine what happens to the loan book once it is sold on? I do not expect the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to be able to respond today on this. While Anglo Irish Bank and Allied Irish Banks can say they are getting value for money on the grounds that they are getting the market price, let us ascertain the percentage they are getting of the original loan book, and the percentage Bank of Ireland is getting from its original loan book. It is really important that we do so. It is not too late to stop the rot. I would like to see action in this regard on the part of the Minister for Finance.

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