Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)

I wish to share time with Deputy Heather Humphreys.

I welcome the opportunity to speak because we have all been approached by people at our clinics who face huge problems paying their mortgages and clearing their debts. As Deputy Joe Carey said, the Keane report is a starting point and it must be looked on as such. From that starting point, the Government will be able to work out a manageable solution.

However, before we get into the solution, it is important to realise we are not talking about statistics. There is a temptation to talk about statistics, to box people into categories and so on. The reality is that, in many cases, these are young families and recently married couples who took the advice of their local bank managers and were approved by the regional bank headquarters and who may have had jobs at the time. They were encouraged by a now Opposition party and were told by a former general secretary of one of the then governing parties it was party time. They built up massive accumulated debt not only for their houses but for cars, holidays and so on. They feel let down and betrayed. It is no wonder because at a time when they have this millstone of debt around their necks they see the bankers - I am not referring to people working in branches but those with serious levels of responsibility - walk away into the sunset with their golden handshake without any sign of retribution. They see the same trend in respect of some former Ministers. Members of the public are right to be outraged in this regard because they do not see why we, as a country, bailed out Anglo Irish Bank and all the other banks but left Joe and Mary Citizen landed with huge amounts of personal debt, which they need to clear.

We have a stark choice. Deputy Luke Flanagan was right in some of what he said, although not in most of it. Do we put everybody out on to the side of the road or do we put in place a plan which will ensure we do not go back to the days of Captain Boycott? In some instances, the local landlord is whatever Anglo Irish Bank is calling itself these days. We do not want a situation where the modern day landlord puts people out on the side of the road. We must avoid that and in so doing, we must be realistic.

Debt forgiveness is not the panacea Deputy Luke Flanagan would have us believe nor is the Deputy's idea that we bring everybody out on the streets and pretend there is no debt problem. When people go home, it still faces them and the reality will dawn on them the following morning like a big hangover. This issue must be addressed realistically.

Some suggestions have been made, such as mortgage to rent and rent to buy. We need to engage properly with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the local authorities and the housing associations and not pretend that because it is private debt, we cannot somehow engage with the local authorities and the housing associations to try to resolve this issue. They have experience in this regard which needs to be tapped into, as has the Money Advice and Budgeting Service.

In many cases, people are embarrassed when they come into one's clinic or when they meet one on the street. They feel lucky to have a job but they have unmanageable debt and cannot cope with it. They feel they have nobody to turn to. The fact we are debating this issue gives these people some hope that when they come to our clinics, we listen to them.

There is outrage among the public that the taxpayer has pumped huge amounts of money into the banks. We know the banks have been recapitalised but the reality is they are not lending. Two teachers came into my clinic last week, both of whom are in permanent jobs and are blue chip people. However, they were refused mortgages by two of the banks we have recapitalised heavily. They do not understand it as they are in jobs for life and will have pensions, that is if some people do not get their way and send us back to the Stone Age. They cannot buy a house and yet the building industry is on its knees. These people would like to borrow but the banks are not functioning. That needs to be said here because there are very few opportunities when can say it.

I welcome the commitment in the programme for Government to address the issue of mortgage interest relief because it is hugely important. It is also important to assure people that they will not be put out onto the side of the road. We cannot afford to have a situation in which people are living in fear and do not know whether they will have a roof over their heads. If anything comes out of this debate, I would like the Government to reiterate the commitment to protect the family home. We all know of people who are struggling, who cannot sleep at night and who have children going to school. We need to row in behind them and show solidarity.

I echo much of what my colleague, Deputy Joe Carey, said. All I ask is that the Keane report is looked at as a starting point because there is a temptation to come into the Chamber and say the Keane report has a lot of flaws and it is not everything we would like it to be. I fully agree with some of what has been said but the reality is that people want a Government which listens to and empathises with them and which will put a plan in place.

There is no doubt we have inherited the biggest basket case in Europe, although perhaps Greece and a couple of other countries are about to overtake us. We have a serious economic problem and we need to be honest with the people rather than adopt the ostrich-type school of economics where one buries one's head in the sand and pretends one does not have a debt crisis when one does, some of which is sovereign debt and some of which is banking debt. We need to address the crisis and to be very honest with people and not give them false hope because these are not statistics but are families and individuals in our constituencies who need our help. In providing that help, the one thing they rely on is honesty because they did not get any degree of honesty over the past 14 years. They were told to eat, drink and be happy.

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