Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)

I acknowledge the presence of the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton. Having listened for the past ten or 15 minutes, it is refreshing to hear the Minister speak as she did, referring to the need for restructuring the social protection system and focusing on outcome rather than cold figures.

I also agree with much of what Deputy Cowen said concerning reform, how things might be done differently, and the importance of the social protection schemes. It is a pity that during the previous 14 years that same level of empathy with people was not seen in the previous Government. To borrow a phrase from someone else, "We are where we are", and it is not a very good place. As the Minister observed, more than €20 billion is being spent currently on social protection as a direct result of the economic collapse the country has endured. That is a story for another day.

The most important aspect of the Minister's speech concerned the vital need to protect the needy, those people who are reliant on social protection payments to get from Monday to Sunday. One cannot underestimate the importance of this when one is sitting in one's constituency office and a person comes in who is almost embarrassed to be looking for assistance with the completion of a form. I am sure every Member in the Chamber has seen this. The individual does not want to be in this position but he or she has no alternative. People tell me the indignity of losing their job is one matter but it is compounded by having to go through a system which in many cases does not treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve, having lost their job and being put into this position. I was at a committee meeting recently when the issue of the quantity of PPS numbers was raised. Some of them are way out there in space. God only knows who is responsible for them, or what actual purpose they have. I am concerned about the number of PPS numbers, what is happening with them and how they correlate with the needs of the country at this time. Deputy Browne spoke about the access to social protection of the self-employed when they fall on difficult times and the use by some people of the social welfare system to compete with the self-employed. Such issues need to be highlighted. The Minister alluded to social welfare fraud earlier. I raised the use of PPS numbers in the House previously. It should be possible for them to be accessed by officials working in housing, motor tax, the HSE and all other aspects of public expenditure. Passenger records are transferred between Ireland and other jurisdictions so we have details of those moving in and out of this country. However, we are unable to provide that level of information to the Department of Social Protection.

As the Minister said, social welfare fraud is not an attack on a particular individual, but an attack on the State as a whole. A small minority of people are ripping the State off. This Government has made substantial savings in this regard, as did the previous Government, in fairness to Mary Coughlan. I wonder if further savings can be made in this area. We all know of people in every town and village in this country who have no visible signs of income but are enjoying the life of Riley. They are small in number but, as the Minister said, they cause questions to be asked among taxpayers, people who pay into the social welfare system and other legitimate service users. They want to know how they can be in their positions when people who have never worked a day in their lives have the life of Riley. I wish the Minister well in her endeavours. I congratulate the Opposition on introducing this motion and giving us a chance to inject a decent amount of fact into this debate.

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