Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)

The Deputy may well be right in what he says, but the documentary evidence available is that the NTMA e-mailed a particular person in the Department of Finance questioning the manner in which this was treated. That was in August 2010. There is no indication and I do not believe for minute that my predecessor, Brian Lenihan, was informed of this. Therefore, I am not trying to spread the blame at all. It came to light at the start of the preparation of the figures for the budget - the budgetary process - and it came to light again this year in preparation for the statement to be issued by me on Friday on the fiscal position into the future. Obviously, the level of our debt is one of the crucial numbers included. An e-mail came again on that, but to a different official. It was acted upon this time, but not the first time. I do not know whether the NTMA rang officials or whether it had private conversations or what kind of interpersonal exchange took place between it and Department of Finance officials who are in contact with it at several levels every day. The record shows a couple of e-mails.

With regard to the inquiry and where we go from here, it is important to find out what happened and what caused the mistake to occur. So far, it looks like human error on the part of a particular official. That is not the big issue. Chasing an official in the Department of Finance who made a mistake is not the big issue. The issue is whether the systems are in place to ensure the figures are correct. We all know the word "systemic" from previous exchanges in House. The issue is whether there is a systemic problem in that section of the Department of Finance. Human errors occur, but whether this is a company or a section of a Department, we expect that where a human error occurs, the checks and balances within the system will ensure that somebody elsewhere in the process will discover the error. That is how we trap, correct and contain mistakes. I am quite happy to let the Secretary General inquire to establish in further detail the facts of the situation in respect of the error. However, an examination of the situation to see if we need to change systems will have to be conducted by an outside agency, as the Deputy rightly says. That cannot be internal and it has to examine the section in the Department of Finance, the relevant section in the CSO and the NTMA, because it occurred in the relationships between the three.

The system failed again when it was not picked up and when the Comptroller and Auditor General examined the 2010 accounts and reported to the House in September 2011. In fairness to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff, his primary scrutiny when looking at Departments is to track money in and out. While this would be within his remit, the overall figure for the debt would not be his primary concern when he is examining the account of a Department. I am not making a criticism of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

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