Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)

I am pleased, if one can call it pleased, to speak on this serious issue. I feel a responsibility to speak on this. Children born into disadvantage or born out of wedlock ended up in homes and we now know about the horrors that went on there. Previous speakers referred to the need for balance. We need balance and we need to be calm on this issue. The State must recognise the victims were seriously wronged and it must, above all, ensure any future legislation will be watertight. We must acknowledge the State's abject failure to protect those children. Some of the victims have now moved on and are living fulfilling lives but many suffer from depression, alcohol-related issues and drug addiction. Many of them have struggled to build a semblance of a normal life.

I welcome the new Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and her commitment to change in this matter. I also wish the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, the best in his portfolio. I know it is difficult when one was in opposition a short time ago. I refer to Deputy Kathleen Lynch and Deputy Joe Costello, who supported some of the people who wanted to have their cases heard by the redress board. The redress board was set up with the best bona fides, like many other boards and institutions. I acknowledge the bona fides of many thousands of decent, hard-working, honest nuns, brothers and priests who give so much to education, on missions and doing other good work. I mention Sister Veronica, who set up the Aislinn Centre in Ballyraggat. We cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater. Any wrong must be rightly condemned but we cannot allow ourselves to get carried away and to deem them all to be bad.

The fees paid to legal firms under the redress board are scandalous. The fees for 12 board members amounted to €800 a day, even though it has been cut back somewhat. These fees were paid when there were also paid staff. I am not trying to lessen the impact of work they had to do but I condemn out of hand those sums. None of the people on the board are lay people or ordinary people, all of them come from the legal profession or academia. We seem to have lost sight of what ordinary volunteers can contribute to this country and that is wrong.

The arbitrary date for the conclusion is almost callous. There must be fair play and enough time although I know a lot of time has been given. Perhaps some people were not aware and were unable to get in on time.

Let Our Voices Emerge represents those falsely accused of abuse, such as ex-nun Nora Wall. The organisation believes the board is too ready to pay out to applicants and that many claimants are either lying about what happened to them or exaggerating. I will not justify that or condemn it but I know Nora Wall and I know what happened. It was outrageous and we must be careful about going into hysterics and undue investigations. That case was brought to court and I was appalled by the actions of certain members of the Garda Síochána in Dungarvan who investigated the case.

I am also appalled to hear about the retiring superintendent Tom O'Grady. The carry-on that went on was outrageous and thankfully, on appeal after being sentenced, that woman was freed to live some semblance of a normal life after the stigma of conviction. We must be fair and balanced because there are countless victims, which is outrageous. I fully support victims but we cannot have people hijacking the board.

A former county councillor and the ex-mayor of Clonmel was on several TV stations condemning what happened to him in his time at Ferryhouse. When he was mayor of Clonmel, he offered a civic reception to the brothers and praised them to the high heavens. I do know how he can be carrying on in the media. I ask the media to be fair and responsible. He attacked the brothers a few years later when it suited him and he received the opportunity of using television and being involved. He wanted to be on the redress board and to be paid to work as an advocate. Some of those for whom he worked are not happy with what happened. We need balance. These are the facts on the record. A civic reception was rightly afforded to the brothers. He was a man who was elected and was a sensible man. How did that turnaround come about? I am concerned about these issues.

Regarding the Cloyne report, what went on is appalling but I do not want people jumping on the bandwagon and condemning every religious order and every member of the religious. There are so many good people who are friends of mine and who work in leadership roles in communities and work under the constant strain of the cloak that has come over all orders. All of us have a sense of shame about what happened but we need balance. Regarding the Garda investigations, we cannot try to right all wrongs and seek convictions at all costs. That might be dangerous and it is very unfair and wrong. Justice must be done for the likes of Nora Wall and others.

I am happy to have the opportunity to contribute and I hope the Cloyne report will get to the bottom of this matter. We have seen too many bad experiences. Today we discussed aftercare but children in those homes had no aftercare. We have much evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, to make proper decisions leading to watertight legislation.

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