Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

The amendments we are discussing highlight another difficulty I have with this Department. I will not contest it too extensively with the Minister, but I have to make an observation about the consultation between the Ministers for Public Expenditure and Reform and Finance. Every Member of this House will understand that the public service can be very good at passing the buck. Public servants often say somebody else decided the policy or made the decision. When one contacts the guy who made the decision, he says he was only following the policy made by someone else and the wheel goes around.

I will give the House an example from my early days as a Deputy. I do not know how I was clever enough to do what I did in this case. I must have been caught out once or twice before I learned. This example relates directly to the amendments before the House. Some years ago, the National Roads Authority was changing the signage used on national primary routes in various areas. Its workers arrived in County Laois to put up the big signs used on open roadways to declare the maximum speed limit or warn motorists about major junctions. When we discovered that it wanted to place one of these monstrosities on the lovely green in Durrow, we all reared up and asked what was going on. We told the engineer that the works were not on because they would destroy the village. We said smaller signs would be more appropriate to a little urban area. We got the run-around before the job was eventually stopped because it was going to be a shambles.

At that stage, I decided to send identical letters to the local authority and to the NRA. I will not say I was clever because I should not praise myself. The letters asked who authorised or approved the signs and who decided they should be located in Durrow. The responses I received were brilliant. All Deputies will have received similar letters. The NRA said it was responsible for deciding policy and providing funding, but that decisions on the placement of signs were made by local authorities. The local authority wrote back to say that the signs were being put in place under a scheme designed, approved and tendered by the NRA and that the specifics of the contract were approved by the NRA before any work commenced. That is how the circle goes around. I am worried that this legislation will make the wheel of irresponsibility or of not taking responsibility bigger.

I will give another example. If a local authority wants to propose a roads project, it has to contact the NRA. Up to now, the NRA would have contacted the Minister for Transport for policy approval, or else it would have been agreed under the overall scheme. On occasion, the Minister for Transport would have had to get it cleared by the Minister for Finance. Under the new system, not only will the local authority, the NRA and the Department of Transport be involved, but the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform and Finance will be involved as well. The Minister will have to consult the Minister for Finance, or vice versa as the case may be. Five bodies will have direct responsibility for implementing the work, carrying out the work or setting the policy. We are making the wheel bigger. The way the system works means that the wider the sphere of responsibility for a particular action, the less likely it is that an individual will be held responsible. We are getting away from accountability for decisions. The Department of Finance will have to be consulted when the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is setting policy. Each line Department will have its own role further down the road. Can the Minister understand my fears?

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