Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)

I understand the Deputy's frustration. There are two reasons the Estimates debate for this year is somewhat confined. In the first instance the restructuring of Departments has delayed the entire process. As the Deputy pointed out we are at the midpoint of the year but it is only now with this Bill that we are putting together a new Department because there was a general election and a new Government. That has delayed the process and I appreciate it is frustrating.

The other reason is that the committees have just been established. I do not know if Senators have joined them. The Deputy can be absolutely assured that, given the new Bill which will come in the autumn and the resolve of the Government to involve Parliament in a much more meaningful way across public administration, committee by committee, that we will see improvements.

The Deputy makes an interesting point. Given that the Department of Finance has been effectively divided between the Minister, Deputy Howlin, on the public expenditure side and the Minister, Deputy Noonan, on the taxation and banking side we have two substantial Departments with two separate focuses, working together in many cases because of the role they previously had.

This will inevitably lead to some change on budget day. While the Minister, Deputy Noonan, might put forward views on taxation, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, has responsibility for setting out a framework for public expenditure subhead by subhead, about which he will presumably make a statement. I do not know how the theatre of the event will be organised on the day. The Deputy is right in pointing out that the commitment of the Government in separating the Department of Finance and establishing two key Departments effectively provides a kind of joined up departmental approach.

He is correct in saying there will be a role for the Minister, Deputy Howlin, on or close to the day. I cannot comment on that. As I said earlier, it is also important that if we are going to start looking forensically at expenditure, which I know the Deputy like all of us wants to do, it is crucial the committees not only have a bigger role but that the time line for them in assessing public expenditure profiles committee by committee happens much earlier in the year.

Some of the secrecy of budget day, in terms of considering options, could be altered if those ideas were tested in the first instance before committees as they should be, rather than on the floor of the House. I know it is the intention of the Government that over the next while ideas on expenditure will be examined in a much more focused way and debated in committees.

Whether that can be put in place this year is more difficult given the delays I mentioned. It is something we are committed to doing. We want to make sure that ideas are flagged much earlier in the process rather than at the tail end close to budget day. We are going to have a much more useful budgetary process where we can examine ideas and subheads rather than, as the Deputy rightly pointed out, having a ritualistic one hour every year. It has not worked for anyone. I suspect it did not work for the previous Government.

I am sure there were Ministers in the previous Government who wanted an opportunity to tease out with committees the options they faced in terms of their dialogue with officials. As the Deputy rightly pointed out that has not happened. It has to change if we are going to make the process a more useful exercise.

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