Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)

I am delighted to be able to speak on this important Bill. I am concerned that a proper briefing was not given to our Technical Group. I do not believe any briefing was provided to us, unlike what was stated earlier when the question arose. I attempted to raise the matter on behalf of our group, but was told by the Ceann Comhairle that because I was not in a political party I could not take part in the debate this morning seeking more time, as Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin have done. I know the Ceann Comhairle was right, but the system should be changed. We should be sitting late tonight to discuss this important legislation. Many such house-keeping matters need to be dealt with in line with the new Government's pre-election commitments on transparency, as well as being fairer and more respectful to everybody who was elected to the House.

I have wished the Minister well in his new portfolio and I voted for his appointment. I sought him out last night to compliment him on his announcement yesterday concerning pay scales for some senior people in semi-State bodies and elsewhere in the public service. I welcome that measure and hope it happens, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I had many animated debates on this subject with the late Brian Lenihan, God rest him. At the time of the pension levy, he rolled back on it with regard to senior civil servants. When I tabled a motion before my parliamentary party at the time, I was informed there were only 100 people involved, but it turned out to be 700 or 800. We did not get the honest facts and while I am not carrying out a witch hunt, we do need honesty and openness from those sections.

I can see why this motion has to be dealt with. Earlier this morning, the Tánaiste said people were actively clamouring over when it would be done. It took time, but it should all have been done together. Surely we have the expertise to get it right, instead of rushing amendments through at this stage.

The NTMA was put in place some time ago and was a wise decision at the time. As a previous speaker said, it was headed up by Dr. Michael Somers and, despite the pay scales involved, it did good work. No one minds paying good money when they get good work done. I made the same point in my contribution to the debate on JLCs yesterday. Many employers have arrangements to pay good money for good work. It works that way when there is a good relationship and mutual respect, and it is the same at the top level. Like other speakers, however, I want to know what the NTMA staff are doing now because we are locked out of the markets and will be for some time. It is a problem of public perception to have such a body of well-paid people, although in fairness they did good work.

Were Dr. Somers and other senior people in the NTMA locked out of the discussions on that infamous night of the bank guarantee in 2008 and other infamous meetings that took place? We had to come in here and vote for a pig in a poke. We were obviously lied to, but these people were probably in a better position than anybody to understand what was happening in Anglo Irish Bank. I am wondering what happened there and whether Dr. Somers was consulted at all about that important item.

In Cork recently, Mr. Frank Daly, the chairman of NAMA, made an interesting statement at a meeting of the British-Irish Parliamentary Body. I have come across major issues concerning NAMA in my constituency, but we were told that we had no role or function in that regard. NAMA is not simply about economics and the property sector, it must also take into consideration the impact it is having on a range of business sectors within its remit. I simply do not believe that NAMA can work against business growth; it must be proactive and supportive of viable businesses and maybe ones that are not so viable and are under the radar. NAMA should look at the history of such businesses, as well as the ebb and flow of the economic situation, to see if they could come up again. NAMA cannot just act clinically, going in to close down a place, because it has major repercussions for industry. In my county, for example, there is a family who own several businesses. Just because one of them got into NAMA, because of property and - I might as well admit it - because of a bit of greed, nonetheless they have other viable businesses providing hundreds of jobs. They cannot stop the cheques for every one of those and halt the cash flow.

I hope the Department of Finance will oversee the work of NAMA staff in terms of how NAMA properties are being packaged for sale. It is important to have trust, so they must do this. It is important to have the necessary staff in there and we will probably have to get staff from outside. I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the staff in the Department of Finance, but how could they understand pig farming or the retail, hotel and many other industries that are involved? It is too wide and diverse. No one person or team of people could understand all that. The Department needs people seconded from them. I am not talking about consultants who are anathema to me. The Department needs people who understand these businesses. I am concerned that the market is only interested in top level properties in desirable and strategic locations. The danger is that we would be left with the dross and money might be made from selling off the jewels in the crown for short-term gain but that would create more problems down the road. The Department must use its position to oversee the process and ensure that such packaging of properties is fully explored.

There are also a number of NAMA properties that would be valuable for social and public projects. I like the new Minister's style so far. Many communities have suffered as a result of the so-called property boom. There are a great number of small properties on the web that would suit communities for a vast array of social good, and they must be examined. We cannot have a clinical approach to package off all these properties and make a profit from them. A review of the operations of NAMA, which was set up in a hurry, is overdue.

The jury is out and will be out on the splitting of the Department of Finance in terms of how it will work. It is a big department and it has veins, so to speak, going into all other Departments. I know the Minister is eager and anxious to make change and while it is needed in the Department we must be very careful how we go about that.

I was interested to hear the Minister cite what was said by W. T. Cosgrave in 1923. Everything has been tainted with the scandals that have happened in our country and people's trust in all institutions has been damaged and undermined. We must ensure the Revenue Commissioners maintain their independence and are strengthened in their role. There must be no cosy deals because of NAMA in regard to revenue or anything else. Everything must be on the table. It will take a great deal of exploration, research and understanding - basically understanding is the big issue.

I wish the Minister well but I am disappointed in view of the commitments made that we face a guillotine on this debate and have a short time to contribute to it. The Tánaiste might have said this morning that we have sought this, which we have, but it is like training for a match. One might lose some. We are looking forward to this year again and we do not know about Kilkenny but one may have to make a few attempts to get it right.

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