Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

The staff of the Department of Social Protection receive a great deal of training and there is a culture of giving people advice, publishing a considerable amount of information on the Department website and making information available in particular through citizens' information centres and MABS for people who are in difficulty with mortgages. Regarding citizens' information structures, I was very happy recently to have launched a new system of advocates for people with a disability to ensure they get the relevant information on their entitlements in dealing with the social welfare system. If some of the people the Deputy has met have a bad experience, I will certainly convey that back to the Department, but the Department invests a great deal in training and information for people who wish to avail of social welfare support.

The core issue here is confidence in the social welfare system. There are a small number of modest measures in the Bill that address fraud with a view to limiting it and maintaining confidence in the social welfare contract. Someone who starts work at 18 and pays PRSI until he or she retires is entitled to feel confident that money goes to people who require that support. That is the political contract we have as a society. The number of people who make fraudulent claims is probably exaggerated. I saw the recent British reports to which Deputy Wallace alluded. However, they are none the less extremely important in undermining confidence in the system. There is a widespread belief that the black economy is back in business in a way that has not been seen since the 1980s.

Section 13 extends the powers of social welfare inspectors to investigate employers, contractors and subcontractors who are found to be employing people and to investigate those workers and provides for more practical arrangements where social welfare inspectors form part of multi-agency checkpoints with gardaí and customs officers. This has been done along the Border and regarding specific occupations from time to time. It is an important issue for the Department, the Garda and Customs and Excise to send out a message that we are serious about preventing fraud.

I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for the amendment in which he proposes to insert the term "obtained as a result of conscious fraud". However, the substance of the amendment is already covered in section 18 and therefore I do not propose to accept the amendment. The provisions of section 18 need to be read in conjunction with section 17. Section 17 provides that where a person is required to repay any social welfare overpayment, the amount of that overpayment may be deferred, suspended, reduced or cancelled, subject to the conditions and circumstances specified in regulations. My Department is obliged to make every effort to recover the full amount of any overpayment that occurs. Depending on the particular circumstances of any case, arrangements may be put in place for that repayment of the overpayment to be a single payment, by way of regular repayments or by way of regular deductions from a weekly social welfare payment. In certain circumstances, for instance where an overpayment occurs following an administrative error on the part of my Department which the claimant could not reasonably have been expected to have noticed, the overpayment may be reduced or cancelled in order to be fair.

Section 18 refers to an overpayment that arises from the fraudulent claiming of a social welfare payment. I do not understand what difficulty Deputies could have with the proposal that a person should not be able to offset the amount to be repaid against potential social welfare benefits for which he or she might have qualified during the period to which the overpayment relates to prevent him or her from playing the system. It is quite a reasonable provision. Deputy Ó Snodaigh attempted to address it using slightly different wording, that is, by using the term "conscious fraud". According to my legal advice, I am not sure that term would be the appropriate legal term. I am not a lawyer and I am relying on the legal advice I have received.

As Minister for Social Protection, I must reiterate the importance of prosecuting perpetrators of fraud. As I stated, we prosecute those responsible for fraud in respect of social welfare and taxation and we are able, as a society, to take action against actions of bankers that have resulted in enormous losses to the State. Business fraud, white collar crime and impunity are not acceptable, but neither is social welfare fraud. I want that message to go out as clearly as possible from this Chamber. I recommend section 18 to the House.

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