Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

The social welfare system is a social contract. The viability of that contract depends on ordinary people being confident that the system is not being milked, abused or scammed by a very small number of individuals. The number of those involved in social welfare fraud is not that great. Unfortunately, those people who are involved in such activity completely destroy the confidence of others in the validity of the system. Those who scam the taxation system do the same in respect of people's confidence that said system is fair and above board. As everyone is aware, bankers have destroyed confidence in the banking system as a result of their activities.

Those who commit social welfare fraud are prosecuted. In view of the crisis in which the country finds itself, I would have hoped that the Deputy would respect those people who have worked for 30 or 40 years and who have contributed to the system. These individuals want a good social welfare system and they are prepared to pay their taxes and PRSI to ensure that there is such a system. They do not want others to take a soft ride on the basis of the tax and PRSI contributions they have made out of their hard-earned wages.

I invite the Deputy to reconsider this matter. Any level of fraud in the social welfare system, even if it is quite small, is significant. In the past two weeks, TV3 aired a programme relating to social welfare fraud. Five different individuals appeared on the programme - their faces were pixilated to disguise their identities and I presume their voices were distorted - and indicated that they had been in receipt of jobseeker's allowance for up to four years. They took great pleasure in explaining to the interviewer the various ways in which they are milking the system and scamming the rest of us. Such behaviour is unacceptable. The level of fraud of this nature is small but it is terribly significant in the context of people's confidence in the social contract.

I do not make any apologies for seeking, in this Bill, additional and stronger powers to reduce the level of social welfare fraud. Such powers will increase the confidence of those who pay tax and PRSI in the system. I make similar remarks in respect of those who are scamming the taxation system and bankers. Whether it is in the areas of business, taxation or social welfare, this country cannot afford a culture of fraud wherein the cute individual always gets away with playing the system while ordinary people are obliged to make honest contributions. We need for a culture change in this regard.

The references in the legislation are to fraudulent overpayments. Let us be clear: fraud means obtaining something to which one is not entitled. We are seeking, by means of this section, to ensure that there will not be a type of double benefit in respect of fraud.

I respect a great deal of the work done by FLAC. However, it has alleged that section 18 has the potential to impose a punishment tantamount to a fine on the basis of a decision made by a deciding officer rather than by due judicial process. The preliminary view of the Department's legal officer is that the proposed power prohibiting the offsetting of one social welfare payment against another would not be interpreted as the imposition of a fine in the sense alleged by FLAC. Following a finding of fraud, rather than having a fine imposed by a deciding officer my understanding is that the latter will be in a position to suspend other payments by the Department, presumably until such time as the money is repaid.

From first principles, it would seem somewhat irregular that a person could be found to have defrauded the social welfare system - and consequently be in debt to and be obliged to repay money to that system - while continuing to benefit from other benefits available under the same system. There is a credibility gap in respect of this matter. If, as one of the Deputies stated, an individual has dependent children, the Department would take such circumstances into account. However, the House must ensure that members of the public who pay tax and PRSI will have confidence that their contributions will be used to the benefit of those who require and who are entitled to the support offered by the social welfare system. I make no apologies for that.

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