Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

Fortunately, we were able to return. Working abroad can be a good and valuable experience. Many people who have developed businesses and entrepreneurship have gained experience from living abroad. While savings will be made if young people who were in receipt of social welfare benefits emigrate, it also means we are losing people who believe the country's outlook is not as positive as it once was. The best way to ensure future pension provision, whether it is private, public or State schemes, is to bring back economic recovery and restore employment. By doing so, we can then improve and increase benefits again. However, we cannot do this unless we turn the economy around. It must be remembered that the unfortunate consequences of a construction bubble, like that which Ireland experienced, are long term. They also tend to be more complex than most other types of economic recession.

Deputy Joe Higgins's use of statistics on the large increase in the number of births, a welcome development, and the increase of 3,000 older people per annum living longer, bears out my point on dependency. Children, until they are 18 years of age, will be dependent on the State for education provision, public and social services. An increase in the birth rate, while welcome in the long term, means in the short term an increase in costs for the State. This coupled with an increase in pensioners means the cost falls on the smaller group in the middle, those of working age. In 2010, 495,000 people of pension age received some form of a State pension, a large percentage of the population. Irish society has an imbalance in its dependency rates due to longevity and, as Deputy Higgins correctly stated, the welcome increase in the birth rate.

Deputy Higgins advocates the introduction of a different system. As Deputy Joan Collins stated, I am a social democrat. In that context, I am of the view that we require a mixed economy - incorporating strong public and private sectors - because under such a model we can create employment and provide for social security and for social services in the areas of, for example, health and education in a balanced, progressive and democratic way. That is the essence of social democracy.

Deputy Higgins suggested that the fault in respect of this matter lies with market capitalism. In my opinion it lies with some of the unregulated activities that occur in stock exchanges throughout the world, including those in the United Kingdom, Europe and the United States. One of the issues that arises for workers and their representatives and for people who perhaps - as Deputy Higgins professes to - admire James Connolly and Jim Larkin is to inquire about how their savings are to be used. Are these people saving in order to allow others to play the markets with their money or are they saving for their retirement in a safe and cautious way, with less dramatic returns but with more security in the context of their funds being available to them when they reach retirement age? The question which people in the labour movement must pose relates to how we can create structures which protect the pensions and pay and conditions of workers and which - even in the face of changing demographics - provide individuals with an assurance that they will be able to live with a degree of comfort and dignity when they reach old age.

Deputy Higgins has not presented to the Dáil well thought out proposals regarding how an alternative system would actually operate and on how we would move to such a system if it were established. Much of what is happening on the part of the banks in the context of market failure was caused by lack of both regulation and oversight. Much of the harm experienced in this country was brought about by tax expenditures which assisted in further expanding the construction bubble. It was also caused by greedy banks and speculators feeding off each other. In some instances problems were created by European and other banks lending into the Irish system at the height of the bubble. Coming off the bubble has been a painful and difficult experience for almost every man, woman and child in this country. It has been particularly traumatic for ordinary, middle class people. However, we will turn matters around when we get the country back to work and when the economy begins to expand again.

The Bill is concerned with providing a stimulus and presenting people with opportunities in the context of the internship scheme and the reduction in employers' PRSI. Other measures contained in the jobs initiative programme provide for reductions in the lower rate of VAT, particularly with regard to employment-rich sectors such as tourism. Deputy Higgins may choose to scoff at or be rather critical about the measures to which I refer but I am of the view that it is better to put forward positive proposals. I would be interested in discovering the kind of measures he would advocate and perhaps he will advise us in that regard.

The Deputy is correct with regard to the position relating to demographics. The demographics relating to both births and life expectancy are rising, which is very welcome. As a society, we must decide how to make the kind of provision required in respect of younger people and children. We must also decide on the type of provision which Members on all sides would wish to see being made in respect of older people in their retirement.

Deputy Higgins referred to a nurse working for 47 years. I do not understand from where he is coming in respect of this matter. As he is probably aware, nurses are obliged to complete a four-year degree and training programme. The indication is that by 2028 the retirement age will have risen by one year in respect of the transition year and by two further years to 68. I do not quite know from where the Deputy obtained the figure he quoted. However, I do not accept it. Perhaps he might indicate from where it originated.

Deputy Joan Collins referred to social democracy. If the Deputy wishes to put forward better proposals than those advocated by social democrats - namely, a mixed economy which incorporates strong private and public sectors and a fair, equitable and not over-burdensome taxation system, particularly for those on middle incomes - then I would be interested in hearing what she has to say.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh again raised the issue of the fuel allowance. I have made reference to this matter on at least five occasions today. The best way out of fuel poverty is to provide, over a period, for a first-class system of insulation. Under such a system, people's homes can be weatherproofed and we can thereby reduce the loss of heat.

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