Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)

I am glad to speak on this issue, which we have spoken about from time to time in this House. Speaking about it repeatedly does not mean we have done much about it. Reforms that have taken place since I first became a Member have dramatically reduced the power, influence and authority of Members elected to the House by people. That is what is strange. A few years ago, on the Order of Business, one could ask a question of the Taoiseach or a Minister. It may not have been in order. The Member raising the question had the option of accepting the answer given, if the question was in order, or referring the matter to an Adjournment debate that night. There was no reference to sections 21, 31, 42 or Standing Orders. There was no nonsense. It went direct and straight to the point for an Adjournment debate on that night. Reform took place and now one must raise a matter under Standing Orders 32 or 21 or something else. Eventually, one gets to the position one could have gotten to previously. After 25 years, we have managed to make it more difficult.

Every time reform takes place, we find restrictions imposed on the Parliament. When this happens to the Dáil or the Seanad, the power in the hands of administrators is increased dramatically. That is the way it must work. We cannot talk about Dáil reform in isolation without political reform in general and public administration reform. Fair dues to the Government, which is doing that. It is part of the programme for Government and I hope it will work.

We do not work in isolation. Reference has been made to local authorities. Local and national authorities must sit easily together but one cannot grow at the expense of the other. Many Members spoke in this House of the need for more power for local authorities. This is a direct threat to Members. Devolving authority to other bodies, subordinate or otherwise, means one ends up with less power and authority. People will say that local authorities should have the right to raise taxes. They have the right to do so but no Minister can give total unlimited power to other bodies to raise taxes because then the Minister will not be able to raise taxes. That is how it works. It is a balancing act.

Regarding Deputy Wallace's point about Members' attendance, in the beginning there were more Members present in the Chamber. I refer to the beginning as 25 years ago and it depends when one started. One had to be in the House if one wanted to speak. If one was not in the Chamber, one could not speak. There was no list system and the order in which people presented in the Chamber determined the order in which they were called to speak. It was very time consuming but the system has now changed. At that time, no one was allowed to read a script. They were ordered to sit down immediately if they tried to do so. However, things changed. I knew things had changed forever when I saw a Member who did not manage to speak but had a script ready and had issued it to the press. It appeared in the newspapers the next day even though that person had not spoken in the House. I can still remember who it was and the circumstances in which it happened. That could be hugely embarrassing in certain circumstances. It should not happen but that is how things evolved. Evolution is the enemy of Parliament because it has a habit of taking on a life of its own and taking upon itself powers and presumptions of authority that do not exist. That is what is crazy. Over a number of years, Members will eventually realise that they no longer have the powers they once had. They will ask where it went wrong and the answer is with themselves. They conceded because it was an annoyance to have to do the tittle-tattle, everyday nonsense of having to legislate, listen to the public, take on board their views, refer to them in the House and speak on behalf of the people. As a result, over the years we became politically correct. We have now arrived at the ultimate in political correctness. People will still be looking for reform in five years, ten years, 25 and 100 years time, if this House has not been replaced by some subordinate body with powers devolved to the House by an elevated body of experts outside. It is of great importance that the reform is basic and fundamental and recognises the need for the Parliament to be responsive to the needs of the people. I did not refer to the wants of the people because everyone wants everything. There is a need to attend to the legislative measures that must be taken to address issues at a given time.

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