Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)

Given the personal impact on almost every household in the country of the economic crash it is understandable that there should be a demand for those who caused the problem to be punished. The question is whether this Bill will help to achieve that end.

I watched part of RTE's "Prime Time" programme last night which featured two key figures in the national downfall, namely, Seán Dunne, who owes €350 million to NAMA and is reconstructing his life and that of his family in the United States, and David Drumm, who took over from Seán FitzPatrick at Anglo Irish Bank, the bank that sucked tens of billions of taxpayers' money and contributed to our national downfall. While tens of thousands of people are struggling to keep a roof over their heads and almost 450,000 are unemployed, the guys who were at the heart of the crash are living in leafy suburbs in the United States rebuilding their lives in a way that is not possible for the vast majority of people in this State. They have helped to bankrupt our country and appear to have walked away largely unscathed.

The final insult was the revelation in last night's programme that the Revenue Commissioners have paid Mr. Drumm a rebate of €11,000. That is truly galling. It seems both men's greatest asset is their wives to whom they have transferred assets. The outrage felt by the public in the face of these revelations is building rather than diminishing. There is a growing demand that these people face, and be seen to face, consequences for their actions, and that these should include, where appropriate, prison sentences.

I thank the Oireachtas Library service for its briefing document and the explanatory memorandum which accompanies the Bill. While I generally support the Bill, there are several issues about which I have concerns. First is the provision regarding the stopping of the detention clock. Hopefully there will be an opportunity to tease this out on Committee Stage and I note what the Minister said earlier. I am concerned that this may impinge on certain constitutional rights and would thus be open to challenge. We are dealing with people who have the financial means to issue such a challenge.

There is little point enacting new legislation if the problem originates with poor regulation and inadequate resources. When I was previously a member of the Dáil between 2005 and 2007 there were several occasions when the Director of Corporate Enforcement sought additional staff resources, but these requests were denied by the then Fianna Fáil Government. The director complained at that time of a heavy workload and voiced concerns about his office's ability to do its job as effectively as he wished. The reality is that enforcement costs money. Without adequate resources we cannot hope to change the culture that exists and will merely expose ourselves to a repeat of the problems we are currently encountering.

The document from the Oireachtas Library includes a statement by Dominic McGinn, senior counsel, at a recent Irish Criminal Bar Association conference on white collar crime:

If lessons are to be learnt from the 2008 crash, they must surely be not to jump to introduce new legislation, not to create new criminal offences specifically targeted at bankers and not to undertake a radical overhaul of the financial regulatory system. Instead the logical steps would be to trawl through the existing Statute Book where there are more than enough well drafted provisions with which to punish wrongdoers and, more importantly, to dust off the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority Act 2003 and actually use the carefully crafted structure contained therein to regulate the system proactively.

There is little evidence that this has been done, but it must be done.

Clearly there are some new measures in this Bill that are required, including the provisions relating to legal privilege. Mr. Justice Peter Kelly was not heeded when he urged Anglo Irish Bank to reconsider some of its claims to legal professional privilege. We all remember the controversy about the passwords in the case of that institution. There is little point in having laws if they are not adequately enforced. With a public service recruitment embargo in place and the economy in crisis this is an issue that requires careful consideration. There must be an assessment of need within our regulatory and enforcement services. Where there are undue delays because of inadequate resources, employing additional staff may pay considerable dividends in terms of restoring confidence that our systems can work and that the guilty will be punished in a timely way. That is the benchmark against which the Government will be measured - not necessarily the amount of legislation that is enacted but how effective our laws are.

Earlier this month Mr. Justice Peter Kelly expressed dissatisfaction with the time it was taking to conclude the investigation into Anglo Irish Bank. While l appreciate that it is a complex investigation, a timeframe of two and a half years is not acceptable, as I am sure the Minister will agree. The vast majority of citizens consider it outrageous.

Another issue of concern to me relates to the timing of the promised generic whistleblower legislation, which is included in the C list in the legislative programme. There is an issue of natural justice here particularly given that a new obligation is being introduced in the legislation we are discussing which requires an employee to disclose information he or she believes may be of material assistance in preventing the commission of an offence. It is simply wrong not to enact the whistleblowers legislation in parallel. In a situation where someone wishes to return to work following a court appearance, for example, such a return is not viable without that type of protection.

We all know there has been huge reputational damage done to Ireland in recent years, largely as a result of actions by persons in the banking sector. However, the programme last night again highlighted the same culture of developers ignoring the laws in the US. Other cultures need to be changed here.

While the Bill primarily deals with white collar crime, is there scope to deal with other matters such as those raised in the television programme on taxis on Monday night? It was clear people with serious criminal convictions were working in the industry and members of the public were at risk. If appropriate, provisions should be included in the Bill to address that issue.

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