Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

We need to deal with this practical issue. I often ask our European colleagues to put some kind of de minimis clause in legislation. It is easy to include a de minimis measure to deal with this small local issue, which in no way influences anything at a national level. We should ensure that is provided for.

We must consider the issue of referendums and interest groups. I have no problem fighting elections with professional politicians who are fighting by the same rules as myself. I have never spent big money because I believe the best way to win an election is through the hard slog of volunteer workers. There is no way of buying an election that matches getting a big team of committed people together and doing the work. On the other hand, it is wrong if campaigning groups, in referendums or otherwise, can spend huge sums of money from sources they never declare and fight very well-financed campaigns against professional politicians and parties who have been fighting with transparent and limited resources.

Things happened in the past that should not have happened. Tarring everyone with the same brush is wrong. Most politicians and parties have acted honestly and fairly. When people start pointing the finger at individuals, I am reminded on an Irish seanfhocal: an té atá thuas óltar deoch air; an té atá thíos buailtear cois air; an té atá saor chaithfeadh sé cloch. They toast him who is up; to him who is down they give a kick; and let him who is free throw a stone. The implication is clear. There are many ways, beyond money, of not playing fair in politics.

Money was wrongly used in the past. I will not point a finger but it may have been used to influence decisions. I never collected enough money to be influenced by anyone and no one ever came to me, in all my life as a Minister, and said I would have to do this or that because certain people had contributed. I do not know, and no one ever intimated to me, who gave money to my party. I never saw donations as influencing decisions. There is a possibility, however, that it could exercise influence. Perhaps it did, and we will leave to do so those who have been appointed to decide those things. If donating money influenced decisions, then it must be stopped. We must have limits that put influence off limits.

Let us not fool ourselves. Human beings are creative in how they get their way. At times, we are all prone to other kinds of political dishonesty that are equally wrong. There is the dishonesty of promising things we know we can never fulfil and of buying elections with promises. I have often said in Galway that if, at an election time, someone proposed to build a bridge from Connemara to America, there are very few politicians who would not promise to do it. They would say: "Fine, lads, whatever you want me to sign up for." They would know they would renege on the promise afterwards because it was not possible to do what was promised. Let us be honest about it - that is corrupting of politics. We have had elections where promises were made when it was known at the time by the people who made them that they could never be fulfilled.

I wish to raise a final issue which came to my attention when, along with my colleagues, I decided not to take the ministerial severance pay. I made an inquiry as to whether I could donate some of the money I was foregoing to the party. I was told by the authority that if I gave more than €5,000, it would be a political donation, although it was a legitimate sum to which I was entitled from the State and which I wanted to pass on to the party of which I am a member and a public representative. That response was fair enough, so I decided to leave the money in total to the State as it was the simplest thing to do.

However, I have heard politicians in this House boast that they only take the average industrial wage, and I understand those people have the full amount of their wages put through the books of the Houses. Somebody needs to explain to me how they manage to make donations I could not make.

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