Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)

I sincerely thank Deputy Murphy for getting me an audience.

I thank all the Deputies who contributed to the debate. We need to have more discussion but it should be predicated on honesty. Both Government parties said during the election campaign that they would tell the people the truth about our economic circumstances and that we would not give them false hope or pretend that there was an easy way to get ourselves out of the terrible economic mess into which we have been plunged over the past number of years. That level of reality must be embraced by everybody who made contributions to the debate.

The principal issue raised by Opposition Members is that there is no substantial difference between the renegotiated programme and that negotiated by our predecessors. Let me be blunt and honest about that. A bad deal was negotiated last year but it was a solemn deal negotiated not by Fianna Fáil, but by the Government at the time and it was voted on by the Parliament and we are stuck with it. A number of Opposition Members think we should tell the EU and the IMF to take a hike. I have listened to, and debated with, Sinn Féin members on this because their view is simple. They want us to tell the EU and the IMF, which are providing us with money to pay our bills this year, to take a hike and to keep their money, which they want to lend to us at 5.8%. Their strategy is to use up our national treasury and the National Pensions Reserve Fund, but then what? That will probably give us a little short of a year. I raised this in a debate on radio during the election campaign with a Sinn Féin representative and the attitude was, "Then we'll go back to the markets".

We will tell officials who are giving us money at an interest rate of 5.8% to take a hike and we will go back to the markets, which are charging an interest rate of more than 10%. God knows what they will charge when our treasury is exhausted. The only solution then would be to spend only the money we can generate from our own resources, which would mean cutting public expenditure next year by €20 billion. Guards, nurses, and everyone else across the system would have to be annihilated to do that. Let us be honest with the people in this regard.

The programme before the House is not monumentally different from that which went before it but it is substantially different. We have managed to renegotiate a number of aspects but this is the start of a process. This is not the last time we will renegotiate and the stronger our economy becomes, the greater the leverage we will have to secure better deals. In my negotiations and those of the Minister for Finance with the EU, IMF and ECB, they want us to succeed but they want to us to be in a fiscally strong enough position to pay our way and to get back to the markets within a specific timeframe. They will give us flexibilities as long as we tell them the truth and part of our job is to restore acceptance that the word of the Government can be depended upon to deliver. There are, therefore, substantial differences.

Deputies opposite said the national minimum wage could not be restored but we will restore it as part of the jobs initiative to be announced next week. This will not be an end in itself but it will be the first step in an incremental series to put jobs and job creation at the heart of all Government activity. We will start that process next week. We have the flexibility within the programme to do that.

The comprehensive spending review on which I have embarked is to look fundamentally at the way we deliver services here. I spoke to every Secretary General and finance officer in every line Department yesterday. It is not business as usual. It is not the status quo. It is not the old processes of interaction between the Department of Finance and line Departments; it is looking to see what is essential to deliver to maintain decent services and, as we discussed during the general election, a floor of decency, in this country, but on the basis of what we can afford. We would love to continue to provide into the future what we are currently providing but we cannot do it for the next few years because we do not have the money. These are substantial changes but, in essence, it is correct to say that the core of the document is what was negotiated.

I will deal with one or two points made by the Deputies to whom I had the privilege of listening. It is important for us to debate that. The solution of Deputy Joan Collins, whom I believe is sincere, is to nationalise the banks. We have already nationalised the banks. The problem is that the previous Government nationalised their big debt and it is now on our backs. That is not a panacea. That is the problem. The second leg of her strategy is to tax the very wealthy whom she describes as anyone earning more than €100,000. She wants a tax levied on them at 95%. Does she and the Deputies of the United Left Alliance believe that doctors, researchers or managers will work in the economy if, in effect, no one can earn more than €100,000? That is not reality. She is opposed to all other taxes.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh's alternative is to tell the EU-IMF to take a hike. That is just not a viable alternative. The truth is that he knows it.

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