Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)

I also learned the term "TR" when I was in there. It was a popular one. People ran up and down the corridor to the governor every five minutes looking for TR.

To get an education on how the prison system works, one can do a degree in criminology or so on. Another good way to see how it works - or, rather, does not work - is to be with those people in the pit, as it were, and to listen to why they are there. Once one discovers the why, one can start to work out how to ensure they do not return. For this reason, I commend the Bill's initiative. It is a fantastic idea. I am somewhat baffled that it is revenue neutral, as I cannot see how it is not revenue positive. According to the Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT - my thanks to the wonderful Oireachtas Library and Research Service, which I discovered in the past week - this initiative could reduce the cost from €77,222 to €2,500. While the physical building will still be provided and there will be many other costs, it is also clear that a great deal of money will be saved.

Public support is necessary. Much of the reason for going down the road of jailing anyone who picks his or her nose, so to speak, is that the media has driven us in that direction. The media seems to forget that, in the United States of America where one can get jailed for not covering one's nose when sneezing, the more people who are put in prison, the more problems the US seems to have. As such, it is great that we are going down this road instead.

I would make certain exceptions to the Bill, for example, white collar crime. A young hardy lad who is sent into prison will need to deal with it all. He might just be able to manage it. However, some white collar criminals might be more deterred by prison. In such cases, prison sentences might not be a bad idea. I am curious about the limit of 240 hours. I do not see why the time could not be extended.

This initiative would affect approximately 14% of prisoners. In light of the IPRT's figures, this would accrue significant savings. If we are to bring the public on board, these savings should be reinvested in the community. For example, there is a prison in my town. To get support, one could say how, if ten people were given community service, the State would be saved approximately €500,000, which could be spent on putting a roof on the swimming pool in Castlerea. Those ten people could even help with the construction. They would be taught new skills, a new service would be brought to my area, the money that would have been spent would instead be saved and the new facility would create employment and render it more likely that young people would get involved in sport, become more active physically and mentally and, as a result, be less likely to end up in prison. If one can show the public it will be a win-win situation, it will receive support and quieten those among the media who want to flog and hang them all, an approach that does not work.

I spent a short time in Castlerea Prison, but I was also moved to Loughan House where I met many young people who, at great cost to the State, were sitting around and discussing with people who they had never met previously what they were going to do when they got out. Invariably, they discussed how to get together and do a better job of robbing some place. Under the community service system, though, they could actually learn something. Research shows that community service does not pull people out of the education system, keeps them in close proximity to their families and so on and is of considerable benefit to their communities.

Since entering Dáil Éireann a couple of months ago, I have heard much that would not send one out of here in great humour or leaping and bounding with hope for life, but great hope could come from this initiative were it carried out in the right way. I understand that we only utilise one third of the capacity of the Probation Service. If so, the initiative is even more revenue positive, given our existing capacity to deal with many of the cases in question.

The initiative is positive, although I will make a suggestion. I am not a hard man and do not proclaim to be one. The most terrifying experience I have had was being brought to prison for the first time. I admit I was terrified. By the second day I was not quite so terrified and after the third day I was anything but terrified as I had acclimatised. I have a suggestion, although it may not fit within the remit of this debate. People can be given community service but they can also be given the experience of one night in prison. On foot of one night in prison an alternative can be explained as the learning of a skill or helping the community. Potentially, somebody could turn turf for the person he or she robbed a couple of months earlier, providing benefit to the victim. People can make a choice, whereas if they go straight to community service without knowing the terrifying prospect ahead of them if they do not toe the line, the effect will not be as powerful. If people are put in jail for a night, they can be shown what it is like. From my experience, I know it to be scary, so people would be far less likely to want to go to prison.

I went to prison twice for non-payment of fines. When I went the second time it was like water off a duck's back and I was not scared. I was never going to be forced to pay a fine anyway as it was a matter of protest. If somebody commits a crime, such a procedure would make that person think twice. I was put in a remand cell on my own and experienced the torture of being able to listen to only one radio station, Midwest Radio, which was playing country and western music. How that did not put me off it for life I do not know. It makes one think. I was correct in what I did but I asked myself why I was there and why I had done what I did. It gives people the chance to think. After a day a person can go out to help Mary, who that person might have robbed. That person could turn her turf. Such action might illustrate which way is good and which is bad. This Bill brings good news and I hope it will be implemented well.

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