Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)

I take the opportunity, on behalf of Fianna Fáil, to wish Deputies Martin Heydon and John Fitzpatrick, on the occasion of their maiden speeches, every success. This is the first occasion on which I have formally addressed the House as spokesperson on justice issues. I look forward to working with the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, in the life of the Dáil in the preparation of Bills such as this and on other issues. However, perhaps we will not again schedule defence and justice business together on the same afternoon for some time.

I compliment the Minister's predecessor, Dermot Ahern, who did much of the groundwork in introducing this Bill. I understand it is essentially the same as the legislation that was before the last Dáil in advance of the general election. Everybody agrees that the rate of imposition of community service orders is not sufficient, with very few judges availing of the option. Only 28 courts have issued such orders. It is important that legislative provisions in this area are utilised more often by judges in order that people can see justice being done within their localities. The Bill does not interfere with the independence of judges and it is important that we maintain that balance between the Oireachtas and the Judiciary. It is a matter for this House to make laws and for others to implement them. We must ensure victims of crime are afforded the greatest possible protection and prospect of seeing perpetrators pay for their crimes.

Other speakers referred to the cost of prisons. The figures released today for the numbers of offences carried out while the perpetrators were on bail present another challenge in the context of this legislation. We all recognise that the Irish Prison Service is under huge pressure. Ireland has one of the highest prisoner populations per capita in Europe. On his retirement the former Governor of Mountjoy Prison, Mr. John Lonergan, observed that one of the key challenges in the Irish Prison Service was overcrowding and that one of the first priorities for reform should be to stop imposing prison sentences on those whose crimes warranted only a short sentence. The Bill offers a solution by focusing on community orders and the administration of justice in a visible way within communities.

We all agree that there is great demand for community service orders, but I agree with Deputy Catherine Murphy that it is important to clarify the management structure of this resource. Will it be done through FÁS, the rural social scheme or the Tús work placement scheme, for example? What training will be given to the persons managing these schemes to allow them to deal with the offenders who participate in them?

It is important, if offenders are allowed to participate in existing schemes, that a distinction be drawn between offenders and those who are participating in an existing scheme as a social welfare entitlement or to use up their 20 hours per week. When placing community service order offenders in a community setting, it will be important to avoid bringing down the entire community work system by so doing and prevent everyone from being branded in the same way. It also will be important that those chosen for community service are safe to work in the community. The worst possible outcome would be for a participant in the community service scheme to commit a more serious crime while participating in that service. This would ruin the entire scheme and those who decry community service orders as a soft approach or soft justice would queue up to have the scheme destroyed.

The Bill allows us to be smarter and more clever in the manner we deal with crime and offences. It responds to a need to open up and free space within prisons for those who are more serious offenders. It responds to a need that has been demonstrated today to be more harsh on those on bail and provide far greater prison accommodation for them, particularly those accused of serious offences. We can do so by adopting this approach without major recourse to increased costs or the existing prison service.

I refer to what has happened in Scotland where the Scottish courts have recently moved to a system similar to that under discussion in the Chamber today. In 2007 there was a concerted effort on the part of the government there to increase the use of community service as an alternative to prison and in that year the number of community service orders exceeded that of prison sentences for the first time. The programme of reform culminated in the introduction of a legislative scheme through the Scottish Parliament to end completely the use of short sentences and this legislation has just come into effect. All Members should consider it as a relative point of comparison as Ireland heads down that road.

Community service orders are very important in enabling communities to see justice in respect of those who commit a crime within their own communities. Prison is something that is distant. Many of us have never seen the inside of one and cannot imagine what it would be like. However, those who commit minor offences in communities should be seen to pay for such offences within those communities. In so doing through community service orders, this can be achieved in a manner where everyone gets the benefit of the labour and the service, as well as the benefit of visible justice within their community. Many speakers have referred to how ASBOs and other court orders are perceived as badges of honour within communities. Were someone physically working or performing community service in the full view of his or her friends, neighbours and family, that badge of honour element would be diminished. People would be judged for what they were because they would be doing their sentence in front of their peers, community and families. I agree with the need for the Probation Service to be centrally involved in this regard and acknowledge it is true that the justice system is perceived as something that makes one cool and gives one a standing within one's community. However, with imagination regarding the work on offer and the tasks set under community service orders, we can begin to tackle the badge of honour issue through a community-led approach. It is essential to start at this point.

In the course of Committee Stage Fianna Fáil will seek clarification on the management programme for community service orders. Were we to emulate, for example, the Scottish experience in which more such orders are handed down than short-term prison sentences, it would require an entirely new reimagination as to how we should roll out this service. If one considers that a community service order costs approximately €4,000 per offender, it certainly constitutes value for money. However, we do not have a valuation on what potentially could be returned to communities through community effort and labour.

Deputy Martinh Haydon and others have referred to the fantastic community spirit in Ireland and I imagine nearly all Members have participated in some organisation or other in being elected to this House. This measure offers the potential to use an entirely new skill set. It does not pertain necessarily to the most hardened of criminals but to those who, for whatever reason, have committed a once in a lifetime action. Consequently, a new skill set will be available, be it in sport, community development or fund raising, to be brought into the community and voluntary sectors. This offers a chance to strengthen the community and voluntary sectors and the services they provide nationwide by so doing. It will be important to ensure the proper infrastructure is put in place to manage this programme and match the skills and talents of those who may participate in the community service scheme with those organisations which need them. I emphasise again that the first time something goes wrong on the scheme, those who criticise it as being the easy option will queue up to have a go at it. If one wishes to see it work, one must ensure an appropriate infrastructure is in place to manage it and ensure offenders are seen to pay.

One challenge faced by the scheme is that many will view it with scepticism and fear. In particular, the placing of offenders, including more serious offenders, to work in community or perhaps sports organisations will give rise to the understandable fear that an offender is being brought into the community or into a setting in which some may not wish him or her to be. In some cases, as Deputy Martin Heydon mentioned, they may be asked to remove graffiti. However on other occasions, they may be asked to participate in, or work on behalf of, committees. There will be issues in this regard in respect of people's expectations and fears and inevitably issues will arise in which such fears will be preyed upon by organisations, political or otherwise, which seek to oppose the scheme. Members must be careful in this regard when laying out the work people can do, the issues in which they can get involved and the amount of information given to a sponsoring organisation in the scheme.

I refer to the subject of Garda vetting. One assumes that even though a person has committed an offence, Garda vetting will be involved for anyone participating in a community scheme. The delays associated with the vetting section are well known. Unless, as I noted, a proper infrastructure is put in place for the community service scheme, the Garda vetting delays which already are causing huge frustration and towards which Members collectively must work towards providing a solution will only get worse and lead to greater aggravation throughout the system.

The final word should be given to the Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, who has recommended that short-term imprisonment be brought to an end. Moreover, the words of Mr. John Lonergan who has given such great service to society for many years also echo that theme. In addition, I refer to the figures and statistics for bail released today. The Bill constitutes the first step towards so doing and Members should work quickly but appropriately to bring the legislation through Committee Stage and I hope onto the Statute Book before the summer recess in order that the challenges we face regarding the overcrowded prison community can be addressed in as benign a fashion as possible.

Fianna Fáil supports the Bill on Second Stage and looks forward to working with the Minister on Committee Stage to tweak it and make it better. However, it is important to ensure the infrastructure put in place is as robust as possible to deal with the challenges that must be faced. Perhaps this is a discussion the Minister can have with his colleague, the Minister responsible for community affairs, Deputy Phil Hogan, and other relevant Ministers.

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