Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

On the other hand, if GDP increases but there is huge demand on the health, social welfare or other budgets, is Sinn Féin saying that education must get the money regardless of what happens, in a zombie fashion and without considering all priorities and competing interests and demands? Undoubtedly, if there was a motion on health before the House next week, there would be an amendment from Sinn Féin stating that more should be spent on health. If there was a motion on social welfare, that party would state there should be no cutbacks in social welfare and, in fact, the rates should be increased. One cannot do all that with a finite amount of money.

It is about time people explained exactly how they will square the circle and how they will get all the money required to provide the services they are promising. Ultimately, the only way to do it at present is to borrow more money, but then Sinn Féin tells us not to be in hock to foreign bankers by taking more money from them, as we owe them more money and lose our independence. Its members are very critical in that regard. I do not like losing my independence either, but there is only one way for a state or an individual to retain their independence and that is by not living beyond their means. Otherwise they come totally under the control of those who are providing the money. While all of us would like to spend more on education, we must state exactly how we will do it.

My view on spending in education is another area where I fall foul of my colleagues in Sinn Féin, even though I have much sympathy for many of their views. When money is scarce, those who have most should pay most and those who need most should get most. When one talks about universal rights, no fees and no charges for people who are multimillionaires, that means robbing money from the poor to provide a free service for people at the top. That is the logic of what one is saying. I attend student debates in Galway and I have challenged the students in the university. They talk about student fees and say they cannot be applied to people with incomes of, for example, more than €120,000 per year. They are all concerned about that. My argument is that they are not half as concerned about the children of Tallaght, Ballybane or in RAPID areas who never get an opportunity to go to university in the first place. If they are really concerned about the disadvantaged and deprived in our community, that is where they should focus their attention. That is where the resources are needed.

The reality in our society is that before children even get to school, the area in which they are born largely determines their outcome educationally. One of the big challenges for the education system is that it cannot operate in a vacuum. Schools with relatively less resources are achieving far better results, irrespective of the parents' education, according to the areas in which they are located. Statistics clearly show that rural areas and rural counties have a much higher number of children receiving third level education than urban counties. Counties Galway and Mayo have a higher number of people in third level education than the average for Dublin city. That is a frightening thought because of the distance those counties are from the universities.

When one examines it further one finds that in middle class areas of Dublin a high number of children go to third level education, but the RAPID areas are total blackspots. In some of them only 10% of children get an opportunity to go to third level education. That is where the resources should be focused. I sometimes think that those who have had all the educational advantage are quick to say that more should be spent on education, but what they really mean is that money should be spent on the advantaged. They do not really mean it to be spent on those who suffer the greatest disadvantage.

This leads us to the fundamental question raised by Deputy Moynihan. There are policies being promoted by various agencies and Departments - I am not referring to political people in this case - that see as the solution to every problem in this country driving people out of the countryside and into towns, cities and villages. The idea is that the more one can get into the city, the more one can measure success. The only vision they have of economic growth is through cities. The problem is that the greatest areas of disadvantage in our State are in urban areas. The areas of the greatest drugs misuse and social problems are all urban ghettos. It is totally unfair to the people in those areas that we have devised social and planning policies which have led to this segregation in the cities. Unfortunately, there are huge, powerful interests in this country and a large number of influential NGOs that cannot see beyond this policy.

If one examines the students at universities in this county, one will find relatively few from the urban areas near those universities, for example, in Tallaght, Blanchardstown and so forth, relative to their rural neighbours. Two things have worked in rural areas. The first is the make-up of the society itself. Irrespective of the parents' backgrounds and their personal educational attainment, education is put at a high premium. Hence the phenomenal success of the small schools of rural areas in terms of access to third level education.

I once conducted a survey in a small three teacher rural school over a ten year period. The results were very interesting. It was before the SNA and extra supports that are now available. Over a ten year period 70% of the children who had gone to that school had gone on to third level education. A further 20% had secured a craft and only 10% left with just the leaving certificate or some other lesser qualification. I also assessed over that ten year period how many of the parents had received a third level education, but it was only a handful. The trick was not that the parents had an education but that the common denominator in the community was the high value put on education. When one examines the urban deprivation issue, one finds that as few as 10% of children are going to third level. Equally, few of the parents received a third level education but the dividing factor is the nature of the society.

Any Government that tries to close the rural schools, under whatever guise, will make a huge mistake. Why break that which is working? Why not concentrate on the part of our education system that has not been put into the total community context? There is one good model in Dublin, St. Ultan's, where the babies, toddlers, after-school care and all the supports are in a single building. It is trying to deal with the social deprivation issue. If we wish to solve problems, let us go to where they are and not create problems where they do not exist.

If one examines the investment in these small schools, one sees a result of 70% or 80% of pupils who attain their life wishes in terms of choice of careers and so forth. There is huge investment in Deis band 1 schools and that is right but, because it is disconnected from the social problems in those communities, one finds that despite the big investment few of the pupils gain what they should from education. I believe that if the Minister for Education and Skills is genuinely concerned about the impact of education on the divide in this society, he will not waste much time worrying about the rural areas where it is working but will concentrate his efforts on trying to deal with what has been an intractable problem, how to ensure that a child born in certain areas in this country will have the same chance as others of having a choice about what they do in life, be it third level education or otherwise. I am not saying everybody should wish to go to third level. They should have the same choice and the same opportunity and what will happen in their life should not be predetermined at the date of their birth by the community they grow up in and the education structure which surrounds that community. That is the real scandal in education in this country. As I stated, I cannot understand why there seems to be a fixation in the Department of Education and Skills and in other sectors in breaking something that has been work quite well.

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