Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)

In principle, I am in favour of changing the law regarding prostitution and of moving in the direction recently indicated. I have stated this in reply to parliamentary questions. I was encouraging of the visit by the Dignity Project. Some officials from our human trafficking unit also visited Sweden to review its experience since changing the law more than one decade ago. However, there is a difference. While Sweden experienced a dramatic decrease in prostitution on open streets, there has not been as much of that trade on Irish streets in recent years. In principle, the Oireachtas should consider the matter in the coming years as well as the constitutionality of any change. For this reason, it has been sent to the Attorney General's office.

As Deputy Rabbitte knows, there is no exact parallel. However, there are some parallels between the issues of street prostitution and street begging. The 2007 Dillon case clearly set down strict parameters as to why the legislation cannot ban begging, namely, freedom of communication, freedom of expression, freedom of congregation and the other human freedoms built into the Constitution. As much as possible, the Bill will set down legislation within the parameters outlined by the Dillon case. As I stated on Committee Stage, we examined the possibility of appealing the case to the Supreme Court. On the Attorney General's advice, it was believed that the High Court's judgment was correct. We have gone as far as we can with this legislation.

Regarding organised begging, the Garda does not allocate resources to investigating activities that are not currently offences, so there is no official evidence in respect of begging. However, we asked the Garda to give us indications. I am not referring to an organised collection of data. I will give an example from this document. It states:

A member in a large rural town stated that in his view Roma Gypsy women and children are being dropped off in various urban centres around the country on a daily basis for the purpose of begging. They are then collected at the end of the day with their "takings". The member welcomes the proposed legislation to deal with begging. He further states that the begging activity engaged by the Roma Gypsy network is also, at times, accompanied by young children.

A Chief Superintendent whose area covers South Dublin states that there is evidence of organised begging. An example of this occurred over the summer months at a Church. Local Gardaí observed a group of up to five foreign nationals (all adults) gathering each Sunday morning at mass times in the vicinity of the church.

These persons would sit at each of the entrances to the church begging. Gardaí used their powers under the Public Order Act, 1994 to move them on, where applicable, but they were limited in how they could follow up the matter owing to the lack of legislation regarding begging.

Another example states: "In January 2010 a Chief Superintendent for a Division covering the Inner City tasked the crime prevention unit with putting in place an operation to establish to what extent begging was organised and if there was evidence of directing and living off the earnings of begging activity." According to this document:

A total of 172 incidents and intelligence reports were recorded. Initially the majority of these incidents were recorded against members of the Roma Gypsy community.

Examination of these reports showed that organised or planned begging was attributable to begging by individual family members of the Roma Gypsy Community only. These people were mostly female and they belonged to different Roma families. It appeared that identified families had established their own specific begging beats and they strictly adhered to those areas. From surveillance carried out these females were clearly observed handing over the proceeds of their begging activities to a family head, usually the father or grandfather. It was subsequently discovered that this handing over of monies was in part due to the fear of their money being confiscated by the courts or Gardaí when arrested.

The families were also observed assembling on a daily basis with family leaders directing the women to their optimum begging locations. Together with the above (collecting of monies) this constitutes a form of organised begging.

Another Chief Superintendent for Dublin states that there is one continuing occurrence of begging which could be interpreted as "organised begging".

This incident occurs every Saturday and Sunday along a busy Road. These individuals will enter traffic which has stopped at the red lights and beg for money or attempt to wash car windows in return for money. Some members of this family can be quite forceful and Garda Stations receive a number of complaints in relation to same. These individuals move on when approached by a Garda however they return when Gardaí have left the area.

There are no incidents of begging recorded on PULSE for this area to date in 2010, however there are 11 incidents of Traffic Endangerment.

This last point is because the begging in question is not an offence as such because the legislation was knocked down in 2007. According to the document, the 11 incidents of traffic endangerment:

relate to foreign nationals walking through moving traffic on the road attempting to beg. There are also 681 Public Order Incidents recorded on PULSE for this District to date in 2010, a handful of which relate to foreign nationals begging who have failed to comply with Section 8 of the Public Order Act 1994.

While "organised begging" is not an issue in a district covering a North Dublin suburb, members attached to the District Detective Office have been in regular contact with members of the Romanian Community who engage in the act of begging in Dublin City Centre on a daily basis.

This contact was made as part of an investigation into a particular murder in 2009. The document continues: "Further intelligence gathered suggested that members of the Romanian Community operated as an organised begging ring in the Dublin City Centre area". While the Garda does not have official figures, it is accepted that there is a substantial element of people living off the proceeds of organised begging on a relatively small scale.

Perhaps tongue in cheek, the Deputies equate this to the deal with the International Monetary Fund and the EU. I do not accept that we have given up sovereignty through the deal. One cannot equate the two issues. Equally, without that deal we would not be able to fund this country. The majority of that money was obtained by this country to ensure we can continue to have the services our people desire. It goes back to our problem, irrespective of who is on this side of the House, that we are spending more than we are taking in and as a result we must borrow or reduce services. It is far better to borrow the money from the IMF and the EU than to go into the market like Portugal did today to pay 6.7%.

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