Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 6, to delete lines 19 to 21 and substitute the following:

"(a) on summary conviction to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, or".

These amendments increase the penalties for offences under section 5, which creates an offence of organised begging. Persons being prosecuted under the section may be proceeded against summarily or on indictment. Subsection (2)(a) deals with summary proceedings. It originally proposed maximum penalties of up to six months' imprisonment or a fine not exceeding €3,000 or both.

We had a discussion on Committee Stage about these penalties and the question of aligning them with the penalties provided for in the event of a conviction for an offence under section 6, that is, living off the proceeds of begging, that offence also being a summary one. I undertook to reflect further on this matter. Following a thorough examination of the matter, I am satisfied it is appropriate to increase the penalties. Amendment No. 4, therefore, increases the penalty from a maximum of six months' imprisonment to 12 months' imprisonment. The fine is also to be increased to a maximum of €5,000 but, due to the commencement of Part 2 of the Fines Act, which we have just discussed, it is necessary, since the offence is a summary offence, to express the fine as a class A fine.

On Committee Stage, we also discussed the penalties in cases where there is a conviction on indictment under subsection (2)(b), particularly the level of the fine. Currently, the Bill provides for a maximum fine of €50,000, or up to five years' imprisonment, or both. Following further consideration, I am satisfied the fine should be increased significantly in light of the dangerous and sinister activities of those who organise and direct begging. Such activity is very lucrative. We are entitled to take these factors into account in setting the penalty and, therefore, I propose a maximum fine of €200,000. That, together with the potential sentence of up to five years' imprisonment, provides the clearest signal to those involved in or contemplating operating an organised begging operation in this State that we regard this type of organised crime as being just as unacceptable as any other form of organised crime. These new penalties will act as a deterrent to anyone planning such activity.

I listened to the arguments of both sides of the House on this issue and accept we should send out a very strong signal. The biggest problem with begging in this country is the strong possibility that it is being organised not necessarily by large organised criminal gangs, but by a number of individuals. On Joe Duffy's show this week, at least one listener who rang in indicated clearly that there are people who deliver people to city and town centres with a view to having them beg and to taking the proceeds from them when they have finished. Most public representatives would be aware of the phenomenon. It is important that we respond to it. We had discussions with An Garda Síochána on the matter. While the Garda is not substantially worried about the matter, it is important that we send out a very strong signal to those who are organising begging on a large scale or living substantially off the proceeds of begging.

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