Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

Chuir mé an-spéis sa mhéid a bhí le rá ag an Teachta Aengus Ó Snodaigh, mar dá leanfadh muid polasaithe Páirtí Shinn Féin, séard a tharlódh sa tír ná nach mbeadh aon saibhreas á dhéanamh ag éinne. B'fhéidir go mbeadh chuile duine mar a chéile, ach b'fhéidir go mbéidis mar a chéile ar an gcaoi a bhfuileadar mar a chéile i gCúba - bocht. Go bunúsach, má tá sé i gceist againn go mbeidh €20.6 billiún á íoc ar chúrsaí leasa shóisialaigh, caithfidh an t-airgead sin a theacht as áit éigin agus caithfidh an t-airgead sin a shaothrú. Leis an polasaí atá ag Sinn Féin, ní bheadh an t-airgead sin ann.

As I stated in Irish, if we followed the policies of Sinn Féin, the simple reality is that the €20.6 billion required would not be available to spend on social protection. Sinn Féin would destroy the country in two ways: it would destroy the economic base of the country, which is the international sales we make to earn enough income for the country to function, and it would utterly destroy any capacity to borrow the money we need to pay for education, health and social welfare. An effect of its particular policy might be to make everybody equal, but everybody would be equal at the level of a country such as Cuba. I do not think that is what the Irish people deserve or want. Therefore, in putting together the budget it is our duty to ensure the productive parts of the economy can function, grow and continue to create more and more wealth. We need them to bridge the gap between the income of the State and the borrowing of the State, or the income of the State and the expenditure of the State. The reality of the matter is that a huge part of my Department's income comes from social insurance payments. The level of funds gathered from that source depends, in turn, on the existence of a vibrant employment base in this country. If we want to get to better days, we have to make sure employment grows and, as a result, the income of the social insurance fund grows. That, in turn, makes it easier to maintain better and bigger social welfare payments.

The people are being asked to make a fundamental decision. They need to decide whether to preserve the €20.6 billion in payments that will be made by the Department of Social Protection next year. Perhaps they would prefer to divide a €13 billion contribution to social protection, which is what has been proposed by Sinn Féin, between the various groups that deserve payments under the system. Nobody in Ireland, other than those who are totally deluded, would choose a €13 billion budget in preference to a €20.6 billion budget. There are no easy choices. In framing this budget, we are putting the country on the road to having sustainable finances. We are continuing to allocate substantial funds to the Department of Social Protection. If we want to increase rates in the future, we will have to continue to reduce unemployment.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh referred to the Tús scheme. He said the numbers were small. The reason that is the case is níl ann ach tús. I know from experience that it takes time to place people in these positions. I will ask integrated Leader partnership companies throughout the country to roll out these places as soon as possible. I hope to have people in place by March. I know from my previous experience with the roll-out of rural social scheme that those staff will be put to the pin of their collars in trying to provide 5,000 places by the end of the year. Deputy Ring might remember that when the rural social scheme was originally rolled out, month after month of gríosadh was needed to get these positions filled. It took the guts of two years to fill them completely. I expect the roll-out to be much quicker in this case. I hope it will be.

It is about time we faced the facts about the banks. When we guaranteed bank deposits, we guaranteed we would have a banking system. There is no comparison between the Irish banking system, which is largely deposit-led, and the banking system in Iceland. If we had allowed the banks to close, nobody would have been able to get money from an ATM, cheque books would not have functioned, it would not have been possible to access deposits and businesses would not have been able to get at their money. Our economy would have been devastated and our credibility worldwide would have been wrecked. It would have taken us many years to repair the damage. Although it was galling to have to bail out people and institutions that acted recklessly, we did so because we knew the effect on every ordinary citizen of this country of failing to act would be much worse. The after-effects of the recklessness to which I refer would have been much worse if we had not acted in such a manner.

As someone who has no particular connection with any bank or any bankers, I honestly and sincerely believe we had two options - to retain a banking system in this country or to have no banking system. It is a no-brainer to say the country cannot function on a day-to-day basis without a banking system. Our Cabinet colleagues from the Green Party are aware of the real choices we faced, as opposed to the choices we would have liked to have had. We could not act as if the madness that had happened in the banks and in society had never happened. When we faced a choice between saving the banks and not saving them, we had to decide that saving them was the lesser of two evils.

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