David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. It is good that we are speaking about how we do business as we do not do so half often enough. I wish to draw attention to something the Minister of State said. He probably received a script, which is typical for Ministers and Ministers of State, and he probably read it for the first time when he spoke here. He stated, "As regards Dáil reform, proposals agreed by the Government last year were brought before the relevant forum of the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges, namely, the Sub-Committee on Dáil Reform". I am a member of that sub-committee but it did not happen. The Minister of State should check his facts before he comes here and reads them out. The Minister of State also stated, "Consensus has not so far proved possible on the Government's proposals". If we could discuss them it would be useful. However we have not seen them. We have not had a meeting since last April while the sub-committee has met once this year.

If the Government is serious about Dáil reform, the Minister of State should not come to the House this evening and imply, by stating that consensus has not so far proved possible on the Government's proposals, that the Opposition did not agree. This is disingenuous. The Minister of State should do his homework before he comes to the House and makes such a statement. We have been trying very hard to get the Government engaged on Dáil reform. Time and again, I have tried to engage the Taoiseach in the House. He states it is a matter for the Chief Whip and the sub-committee. The sub-committee will not meet. What can we do? How can we have a debate and discussion on Dáil reform when the Government will not engage and does not seem a bit interested in it?

Deputy Kehoe rightly maintained that the economic mess we are in at present could in some way be attributed to the fact that this House does not work as it should. The Executive completely controls what goes on here. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that in the UK and Ireland alone, the Government determines the plenary agenda almost completely. In other European countries, such as the Netherlands and Italy, the Chamber decides the agenda. In Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Sweden, the Speaker or President - depending on the office title - is very much engaged in the agenda of Parliament. However, we cannot discuss these matters in the House because the Government will not engage.

The legislative process in other countries is done in a completely different way. Here, this Chamber is a rubber stamp for the Government. Legislation is brought here more or less as a fait accompli. In other countries, the heads of a Bill are brought before the Parliament and the ideas are discussed before it goes back to the Department and the Government for the final document to be produced. This does not happen here. More and more, we see amendments coming forward at the last minute on Report Stage and the guillotine being used excessively with no debate. This is dangerous and wrong.

In a few minutes we will have the Adjournment debate; a major set piece where Deputies come in and read scripts. A Minister or Minister of State, very often not involved in the relevant Department, will take out of his or her pocket a prepared script that anticipates what the Opposition Member or Government backbencher will have stated and reads it for the first time. This is called a debate. Who are we codding? Recently, I watched a similar procedure in the UK Parliament. There, the Minister invited questions from the Member of the Opposition. In this Parliament during such a debate we are not allowed to ask questions. We tried to change this. Fine Gael proposed four or five very small technical amendments to procedure that would have made a big difference but the Government would not engage. The Government will not discuss or make any change even though on his first day in office the Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen, spoke about reform. However, he will not do so, indeed he has been an obstacle to reform of any type.

Last week, we were criticised in the media for script reading. This is what the Chamber has been reduced to. Instead of being a battleground of ideas, we script read at each other. This is not good enough. There is no debate or interaction. We have not seen the Government's Dáil reform package but I would like to see it. I am a member of the sub-committee and I ask the Minister of State to show it to me. I have been asking for it for the past two years.

People are frustrated. Members try to raise issues using parliamentary procedure such as Standing Order 32. It is a joke but it is the only way people can mention in the Parliament serious issues of concern that need to be addressed there and then. In other European Parliaments, one can stand up in the morning and raise an issue and the Minister does not feel attacked. Very often, the Minister will thank the Member for raising the issue and for bringing it to his or her attention, state he or she was not aware of it and that he or she will communicate with the Member later in the day. Here, a Minister looks on it as a personal attack if one tries to ask a question. This needs to change. It is not good enough for a Minister or a Minister of State to come in here and read out drivel which he or she has probably never read before. It is wrong in fact and in spirit. People are very frustrated.

Quangos have been mentioned. Every time the Government wants to hide behind something it sets up a new quango. Recently, I tried to find out about the closure of the courthouse in Cobh. A diktat came from on high. I was told the Minister is no longer responsible and that responsibility now lies with the Courts Service. I asked the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Women's Rights to write to the Courts Service to find out why the courthouse was shut because the people want to know. I am still waiting for a response. People were not consulted, they were not told or asked. It does not matter how inconvenienced they were, the Minister hides behind the quango. Other quangos include the National Roads Authority and the HSE, which is the biggest of them all. What are we doing here? One cannot get answers to anything. All these bodies spend public money. We are sent here to somehow make them accountable for the people but we cannot do so.

This Parliament is totally controlled by the Executive. This is wrong and dangerous and needs to change. The Executive controls the plenary agenda, decides legislation, decides what is debated, how it is debated, when it is debated and, very often who debates it and for how long. People are frustrated and, as Deputy Kehoe stated, this House is seen as almost irrelevant at this stage.

We had the cosy consensus of social partnership were people went into a room and, behind closed doors, decided what should be done. This is Parliament, where we debate in public so that people can see what we say. Why is it that the Sub-Committee on Dáil Reform, when it meets once a year, meets in private? It should meet in public.

We are still waiting for proposals on an electoral commission which we are told might bring some of these things forward. I would like to see major changes in how the House operates but I know this will not happen so I brought forward five minor changes. Let us have supplementary questions on Adjournment debates. Let us get rid of Standing Order 32 and allow Deputies to ask questions for 30 seconds. Taoiseach's Question Time is the most boring time in the House. Very often, something that happened six months ago is discussed. It is a waste of the Taoiseach's time and our time. The Government will not engage with us. I ask the Minister of State to engage with the House on this matter.

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