Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)

Incidentally, I must compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, on stating he learned something from the contributions of the Labour Party Members. I have to state he is a smarter man than I am; I did not learn anything because I heard nothing except the usual lack of specifics. The game of hide and seek continues.

An interesting debate has taken place on whether the deficit should be reduced to 3% by 2014 or possibly extended to 2016. This is interesting but largely irrelevant. Whether the 3% deficit can be achieved by 2014 or 2016 without running the risk of deflating the economy to destruction depends almost exclusively on the level of growth in the Irish economy in the years in between. If the level of growth is not sufficient to enable us to do what we have promised to do then it may be possible to acceptably stabilise the deficit at a higher level. However, as Deputy Noonan mentioned earlier today, if the growth turns out to be in the higher range projected in the recent ESRI report then it may be possible not only to stabilise the deficit to 3% by 2014 but to do so for much less than the €15 billion figure put forward.

The point is that we have committed not only to the EU Commission but also to the European Central Bank that we will achieve this target in the timescale we have agreed, which is 2014. It is also a fact that the people from whom we will borrow money, the international bond markets, expect us to honour and reach that target. We are in a position where the European Central Bank, which guarantees the massive borrowing we have already undertaken and the people from whom we will borrow in the future, demand we adhere to this timetable, so we have no choice but to try and be seen to try.

It would be the height of folly for this or any Government to think an austerity package on its own will be acceptable to the people or that it will work. What we want and what the country needs is an austerity package accompanied by an appropriate stimulus package. I am not speaking about the stimulus package introduced by a Fianna Fáil-led Government in the 1970s, which was clearly unworkable and which the country could not afford. Such a package introduced today would be even more unworkable in the present circumstances and it would certainly be unaffordable. However, there is a type of stimulus we can use. We can target certain areas and do certain things that are not of themselves very expensive - some of them will cost nothing - to stimulate and re-ignite growth and create hope again among the people of the country. We must do this and we are morally and politically obliged to do so for two reasons. The first is that growth is an essential part of the equation. We will not stabilise our debt in 2014, 2016 or 2020 or at all unless we create sufficient growth in the Irish economy.

There has been insufficient emphasis in this debate on the fact that in the interests of the people, we now have to confront the scourge of unemployment. Prolonged, mass unemployment is catastrophic, not just for its victims but for society as a whole. Several learned studies attest to this fact. One of the most notable and most interesting I have read was done by the great Harvard sociologist, William Wilson. He demonstrated graphically how the disappearance of low skill jobs in the United States during the 1970s led to the social collapse of the black ghettos. In this country, we have seen this process in reverse. Rising employment turned what had been sink estates into decent, if not wonderful places to live. Finding a job does more for a person than an army of social workers. It restores a person's dignity and sense of self-worth.

The benefits of the Celtic tiger, despite protestations to the contrary, did not go exclusively to the wealthy; they went overwhelmingly to ordinary people in the form of abundant employment opportunities in their own region, something this country had never experienced before. I have mentioned some of those studies and there have also been interesting studies on the effect of the last decade on the psyche of the Japanese people. However, there is now a danger that we will soon be able to produce our own studies because this country stands on the threshold of an unplanned and unwelcome social experiment. The social experiment will be how mass unemployment impacts on crime, on domestic violence, drug abuse, suicide and a litany of other social calamities.

Along with other people I have been promoting incentives which include a proper workfare programme, not a punitive programme such as a local scheme for cutting grass or cleaning footpaths and if a person does not participate, he or she will lose their dole. It must be something that gives people dignity. Such jobs could be paid for by the State, by a premium on top of the standard social welfare payment, to enable people to be gainfully employed in their own area of expertise and not just a social type of employment. I am referring to everybody, to those with doctorates, for example, a considerable number of whom are unemployed. It could mean everybody could be taken off the live register by postponing one particular capital project I have in mind, called metro north, which is a ludicrous project. The very notion that it is going ahead is ludicrous-----

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